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  1. #251

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    Hot rod article showing stock Cleveland heads and some Trick Flow Cleveland style heads. Lord knows there is a LOT more power to be had if there were a better cam used in the article.

    https://www.hotrod.com/articles/build-a-570hp-351-cleveland/amp/

    But actually on a street motor you might want a bit less cam than they ran even.

    Still by the time you factor in the additional displacement brought to the table by a 408 a pair of C heads on a clevor will be AWESOME!
    Last edited by erratic50; 12-31-2018 at 11:17 PM.

  2. #252

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    Double post
    Last edited by Walking-Tall; 01-13-2019 at 08:28 PM.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible 3.8L ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar 3.8L LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird 5.0L ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan 200-6
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT (390ci 4spd)
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang Fastback
    1974 Pontiac Luxury LeMans

  3. #253

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    You got that right... in excess of 500ft-lbs and 500hp! The ported closed chamber 4V Cleveland heads and all the ideas about a "Clevor" will be going on the back burner... I need this thing back on the road as soon as possible after spring begins. Part of today was a crankshaft journal polishing Sunday
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible 3.8L ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar 3.8L LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird 5.0L ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan 200-6
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT (390ci 4spd)
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang Fastback
    1974 Pontiac Luxury LeMans

  4. #254

  5. #255

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    that's what i'm doing to my 86 vert right now!

  6. #256

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    Yikes! Heater core? Gotta love their tendency, no matter the brand, to pop right in the middle of sub-zero Canadian January, lol... Listowel... I've resided in places all around you, lol... Hanover, Goderich, and Stratford. Have you seen the band Helix lately? ('80's metal heads from Listowel) Welcome to the forum and best of luck working on your '86 'vert.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible 3.8L ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar 3.8L LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird 5.0L ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan 200-6
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT (390ci 4spd)
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang Fastback
    1974 Pontiac Luxury LeMans

  7. #257

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    Got the Windsor's rods/pistons cleaned up yesterday. The pistons are the factory '79 dished units... the dishes measured at just under 13cc. That's not a whole bunch more than the commonly available flat top with valve reliefs replacements... with the early '69/'70 60cc 351W cylinder heads with 0.030" off 'em for ~54cc, and zero-decking the block with about 0.028" off it's decks, to a 9.475" deck height, it'll be a wee bit over 10:1 compression ratio at 10.07:1.

    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible 3.8L ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar 3.8L LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird 5.0L ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan 200-6
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT (390ci 4spd)
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang Fastback
    1974 Pontiac Luxury LeMans

  8. #258

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    I saw helix maybe 10 years ago in port elgin and yes heater core. I live closer to atwood actually.

  9. #259

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    are you located near me? we could meet up when I can actually take my stang out again in april

  10. #260

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    I'm not near you right now, no, but on the east coast for a bit. Planning to be in your area this spring/summer.

    A couple weeks ago, I dragged another 302 home, in the quest to use the damn Performer RPM intake manifold that I got, and a Holley 4-barrel. This (D9, 1979) 302 had already been gone through sometime in the past, with 30-over flat tops in it and a 10-under crankshaft and bearings. Everything looked well worn but in sound condition, and for 50 smackers for the short block and a "rear" sump Fox pan and pickup and bolts and a variety of other odds and ends, what could go wrong? Well, it's a shame... 6 of 8 of the nice condition cast Speed-Pro 30-over flat top pistons have small, non-visible-prior-to-cleaning, thrust side cracks on their skirts. So, that's why recently, as seen in the above post, I have drug the Windsor stuff into the house and resumed getting to work with it's innards. If nothing else, if I don't locate a 4-barrel 351W intake manifold of some sort before spring, there's an aluminum 2-barrel intake that I got with the engine two years ago, out of an early '80's truck, that I'll use and with the LIST-4412-2 500cfm 2-barrel that was on the car's 3.8 V6, re-calibrated of course. Sorry for wandering all over here and there with what engine and whatnot is happening... all of this may change prior to spring as well if other better options present themselves. ... but for now, we're going forward with a 351W
    Last edited by Walking-Tall; 01-16-2019 at 01:00 AM.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible 3.8L ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar 3.8L LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird 5.0L ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan 200-6
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT (390ci 4spd)
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang Fastback
    1974 Pontiac Luxury LeMans

  11. #261

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    To fetch the C9 (1969) 351W and D0 (1970) 351W cylinder heads, and the closed chamber 4V Cleveland cylinder heads tomorrow.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible 3.8L ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar 3.8L LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird 5.0L ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan 200-6
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT (390ci 4spd)
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang Fastback
    1974 Pontiac Luxury LeMans

  12. #262

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    Was unable to fetch the C9 (1969) 351W and D0 (1970) 351W cylinder heads, and the closed chamber 4V Cleveland cylinder heads... due to the borrowed, yet again ANOTHER computer-controlled fuel-injected mechanical a$$hole, under-powered, runs like $hit, and sucks back enough fuel for two black-smoke-huffing, badly tuned 460 big blocks... you can nearly view the gas gauge needle decline... insanity... sensors... BS... and folks might wonder why I detest anything manufactured after 1985... it's all garbage, a continuous expensive headache waiting to happen, is why.

    All of the cylinder heads will be getting shipped here shortly...
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible 3.8L ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar 3.8L LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird 5.0L ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan 200-6
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT (390ci 4spd)
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang Fastback
    1974 Pontiac Luxury LeMans

  13. #263
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    see below....

  14. #264
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walking-Tall View Post
    Was unable to fetch the C9 (1969) 351W and D0 (1970) 351W cylinder heads, and the closed chamber 4V Cleveland cylinder heads... due to the borrowed, yet again ANOTHER computer-controlled fuel-injected mechanical a$$hole, under-powered, runs like $hit, and sucks back enough fuel for two black-smoke-huffing, badly tuned 460 big blocks... you can nearly view the gas gauge needle decline... insanity... sensors... BS... and folks might wonder why I detest anything manufactured after 1985... it's all garbage, a continuous expensive headache waiting to happen, is why.

    All of the cylinder heads will be getting shipped here shortly...
    Ooh You Are Awful... But I Like You! .....good luck with the V8 swap Mike!


    1993-1997 460 Ford Truck EFi





    Use the DTC connector, and read the activated PID's if its EECIV. If its OBDII, then its just a normal reader.

    But you know, its been Scorpionized, and has the spawn of $@+@n control system on it.

    Its the easiest engine to put one of your revitialized 4180 or 780 cfm carbs on...

  15. #265

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    I'm gettin' too old to tolerate such BS. If it ever stops freezing raining here, and I get my ramps out from under the Mustang, I get to chase down whether the "other" vehicle, an '06 Pontiac Vibe, simply needs the rear O2 sensor replaced, or if the vehicle's brain or wiring is what's causing it's P0037 "HO2S Heater Control Circuit Low (Bank 1 Sensor 2)" & P0138 "Oxygen Sensor Circuit High Voltage (Bank 1 Sensor 2)" OBD-II trouble codes. Should be fun Nothing beats simplicity and effective efficient function. I know you know what I mean, lol! Thank you, Sir. Buncha archaic 1960's apparent caveman tech Windsor and Cleveland cylinder heads to land here sometime Monday.

    Ha! Playing with a 460 is on the "someday" list, but there certainly will not be any such shenanigans going on with this drop top
    Side note: I put together a 750 VS a couple years ago for a guy running one of those intakes on a 460 in a 1984 GT. He made up his own adapter for between that bolt pattern and the Holley.
    Last edited by Walking-Tall; 02-08-2019 at 04:54 PM.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible 3.8L ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar 3.8L LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird 5.0L ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan 200-6
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT (390ci 4spd)
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang Fastback
    1974 Pontiac Luxury LeMans

  16. #266
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walking-Tall View Post
    I'm gettin' too old to tolerate such BS......
    Ha! Playing with a 460 is on the "someday" list, but there certainly will not be any such shenanigans going on with this drop top
    Side note: I put together a 750 VS a couple years ago for a guy running one of those intakes on a 460 in a 1984 GT. He made up his own adapter for between that bolt pattern and the Holley.
    That is the answer, Mike.

    As you know, there were some 429SCJ engines that got a factory Thermoquad carb. And Carter made Qjets for GM, and then Ford went Spread bore with the 4350. Donwn here, all our later Clevelands ran Carter Thermoquads.

    Thet old 460 EFi just needs the injectors lopped off, and a nice old hunk of 11 mm aluminIum added. The SI units and the "I" was your you.....


    Let a Lit"re" Last a Little Longer.

    The "re" was for you....



    My mates 390 4X4 runs a CA 425 Impco with a big old alloy adaptor to gender bender the Impco Propane carb with a Thermoquad base on.

    Mike, I've been a little luckier with wading through Fords EFi era stuff, because my Boss at my first job was Alan Ireland was a Dunedin Ford Service tech in the 1985 era when the EECIV Port EFi 4.1 liter Falcon came out. Before hand, it was a Bosch LE-II BMW 323i based system.

    Which replaced the Carter Thermoquad 302C and 351C Fords.


    Alan spent all, ALL, ALL his time dealing with customers who wanted to fit LP Gas/Propane conversions to his customers 149 and 164 hp Fuelie Fords. Drove him absolutely insane trying to deal with

    A) Australian Emissions packages, and

    B) customers wanting to add propane, and

    C) also wanting cut out all that modern, multi million dollar Emission and EFi Sh!+.

    All the time, there was a line of Thermoquad 302 and 351 owners who just wanted a good old 600 Holley square bore or a nice Phase 6 Falcon style 650 cfm 4175 Mech Sec Spreadbore to go on there little 5.8's.

    That made the 240 hp net at 4300 rpm , 367 lb-ft at 3000 rpm cars, with just a 290 degree, 500 lift hydraulic cam, stock cast pistons, Edlebrock intake, headers and a 2-1/2" sports exhaust system, very much like a poor cousin to Zap's 85 GT ballistic 1973 Mustang March 1.

    The power peak is nice, and the torque peak is missing the traditional 2800 rpm hump most 4V Clevelands have. 4350 rpm is quite high, but not when the power comes in at 6250 rpm. 460 hp is the likely flywheel figure, and that's right where a 351c 4V is at its happiest. The heads maketh the engine.
    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...n-my-73-Mach-1








    He left, and worked in my home town on Propane conversions and servicing F100'S, Falcon Ulitiies, Escort Vans and EFI Fairmonts.

    He taught me to drive, and still works at the Shell Z station in Alexandra in my home town,



    servicing cars. Hes 65 years old now, and never too old.

    Thats a 1997 American Windsor 5.0 EFi powered XR8 in the bay....still a Ford man!

    I like both. He told me a very important thing. If you don't want to follow the Ford service manual and figure out how they did it, fell free to go your own way. Its a free country. He had a raft of old modified cars, and said it was fun.

  17. #267

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    Yes, years ago, I looked at (and passed on) a big 'ole, and sort of it's own kind of mean ugly, '70 Mercury Cyclone with 429 and a spread bore carburetor... that looked much like this one...




    So, I snapped a few pics of the ~250 pounds of cast iron Ford awesomeness that arrived here this morning, lol...

    First up, a pair of D0AE (1970) closed-chamber actual "4-barrel" (61.3-64.3cc combustion chambers, 2.198" intake & 1.715" exhaust valves) Cleveland heads...



    Intake ports you could nose a Fox into, LOL!



    One like new...



    ... and the other with a bunch of nicely-done (mostly bowl/pocket) porting started...




    Here are three early Windsor heads (1.84" intake & 1.54" exhaust valves)... a C9 (1969) and two D0 (1970). The C9 and one D0 also have nice porting started... actually darn near completed. I think the fellow had those two heads first, and then acquired another D0 later, to probably have a matching pair of D0's. No matter, they're basically identical, with maybe a very minor chamber volume (~60cc) difference... equaled out, if enough different, when they get surface planed. The later acquired (top in photo) D0 head is in need of valve guides. The lower two pictured, despite their present appearance, are in decent shape and have the porting work (bowls/guides, throats, runners, "gasket" match, etc.) mostly done...



    First order of business, when I get a chance, is to vinegar bath the heck out of the somewhat surface-rusty Windsors... then later, it's hardened exhaust valve seats installed time for whichever pair I'll be using, either on the 351W or a 302...

    Last edited by Walking-Tall; 02-12-2019 at 12:29 PM.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible 3.8L ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar 3.8L LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird 5.0L ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan 200-6
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT (390ci 4spd)
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang Fastback
    1974 Pontiac Luxury LeMans

  18. #268
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Dunedin 9011, New Zealand, South Pacific
    Posts
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    Closed chamber 57 cc heads taken out to 63 cc's are the best. The short turn radius and chamber relieving has to be done modestly, as the area is pretty thin, but the stock flow readings then go up a whole heap, and you get better SAE Paddle wheel RPM. Extra Mixture motion helps on Cleveland style quench heads, as long as the microtexture isn't polished.

    To Cleveland-a-phy a 351 Windsor its just


    1. Cleveland spec pistons that clear the valves

    2.pushrods,

    3. intake manifold flitching,

    4. grinding the water passages to "Cant Valve" a 8.206 Windsor 302 or 9.50 Windsor 351.

    5. And a cam that suits you final firing order.

    The use of cast iron headers was done for the Boss 351...they didn't have factory headers, and the iron type are still fairly efficient and plentiful too.

    The old Boss 302's just used re-heated Ford master cam profiles, often the old 289 and 427 LeMans cam profile

    The intake to use was TPP in Australia's Boss copy for 4V's, or any old Boss intake flitched up.

    Flitching is basically adding intake adaptors to a 8.206" Boss intkae to make it work with a 9.469 to 9.5" 351 W block.

    Old 302 1969-1970 4bbl Boss intakes are around in real numbers.

    Once the old engine guys in the early 70's worked out what a 302 or 351 needed cam wise and intake wise to work with those huge port heads, coping with 265 cfm flow readings and stale intake flow wasn't too much of an issue. Low paddle wheel intake spin didn't work well with the little 302, a 290 cam, 4V heads and the Holley 780 cfm carb, but it did work well with the spread bores and closed chaber 2V heads. We used a tall deck 302C down here, and it was the sweetest thing with a Carter TQ 9800 set up right with closed chamber heads of 57 cc.

  19. #269

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    Between coffees, I hot water and laundry soap scrubbed up the ported C9 and D0 Windsor heads this morning. Rust removal from cast iron, guys, vinegar really is your friend for a DIY tip. These "flash rusted" a little bit while drying, but 99.9% of the rust and scale that was on and in them is gone, with a ~24 hour vinegar soaking. They're pretty clean, and I'll likely have them hot-tanked when some machining gets done. Not surprising is some exhaust seat recession... they'll be getting hardened exhaust valve seats.


    The ported C9 Windsor head...






    The ported D0 Windsor head...






    The porting is nice, but IMHO, is in need of a little bit more finesse. I'll be further maximizing the "window" down the intake entrances some at the push rod bulges, and rounding and smoothing the short turn radii and the bowls a bit more. The other non-ported D0 is now submerged in the tub-o-vinegar.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible 3.8L ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar 3.8L LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird 5.0L ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan 200-6
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT (390ci 4spd)
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang Fastback
    1974 Pontiac Luxury LeMans

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