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  1. #26
    FEP Super Member PaceFever79's Avatar
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    Here this will show my TRW steering for comparison...


  2. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaceFever79 View Post
    Here this will show my TRW steering for comparison...

    Steering aside for a sec, this video is pure music to the eyes and the ears!
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible 3.8L ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar 3.8L LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird 5.0L ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan 200-6
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT (390ci 4spd)
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang Fastback
    1974 Pontiac Luxury LeMans

  3. #28
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    After going over this thread again it appears that you have multiple things going on. I am just typing all of this to help you consider all options before you start throwing money at the issue.

    IIRC, you swapped a later model 5.0 drivetrain into your Zephyr. If that was the case, then the rack and the PS pump would have been matched at that point. If you have swapped the rack for an earlier rack that is not a 15:1 unit that can cause a mismatch between the PS pump and the rack. I am confused by your pump comments so I am not sure if you have swapped pumps too. Again you want to have a 15:1 rack with a 15:1 ps pump and 20:1 match pump and rack.

    If you are running underdrive pulleys on any of the pumps that can cause PS pump issues in regards to assist and the "feeling" of the R&P. If you are running underdrive pulleys and have a mismatch between the pump and the rack that can only make things worse.

    OEM rubber bushings in the rack can allow movement that might be perceived as play or slop. Although generally not considered an issue with "new" bushings. If you want to tighten things up you can always add urethane bushings or MM solid aluminum bushings if you like. I run them without any issues in mine.

    As already mentioned any worn parts in the steering system such as tie rod ends, rack bushings, steering rag joint, etc. can all cause the loose or sloppy feeling.

    Not sure if this helps, but it might be worth taking a step back, verify what you really have installed on the car and determine from there if you need to make corrections to the current setup before "fixing" any other items.

    Good Luck!

    Trey
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Awaiting Restoration
    1984 SVO Restoration in Progress
    1986 GT Wrecked by PO, but still want to save!

    Current Capris:
    1982 Capri Roller
    1984 Capri Returned to Bubble Back Glory
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts
    1982 Capri RS 5.0 4spd T-tops

  4. #29

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    I'll recount the story again, just so it's all in one place. I did swap the '90 5.0L drivetrain in, but I swapped k-members and everything, so the Mustang rack came with it. At that point both rack and pump were from the same car.



    Somewhere along the line, I acquired a used March under-drive pulley kit. It came with a power steering pump already on the P/S bracket so that I (or the seller) wouldn't have to do the P/S pulley remove/install operation. I don't remember from whom I got the kit, so I don't know what application the P/S pump now on the car is from. I installed the kit when I removed my air pump and A/C to further clean things up under the hood.

    So, there may have been a mismatch starting at this point. Then, much more recently, my '90 LX 5.0L rack developed a leak, and rather than taking the time to rebuild it, I wanted a quicker solution, so I bought a used non-leaking one, also of uncertain origin. I seem to recall something about an early '80s V8 car, but I'm not 100% on that.

    So, you could be right about both the mismatched pump and rack, and the under-drive causing problems. I do plan to go back to normal accessory drive when I put A/C back on this coming year. Maybe I'll just wait and see how it feels when I do that. Thanks!

    PaceFever, you car sounds great!!
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI T-5 (Mustang LWB)
    '17 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  5. #30
    FEP Super Member PaceFever79's Avatar
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    Thanks for the complements!

    But I'm lost, I thought you had a TRW rack (for a 79 Zeph)

    Trey could be right, it could be a mismatch of (unknown) components causing your sloppy steering. In fact if it got worse after you installed that unknown used rack that could be the smoking gun.

  6. #31
    FEP Super Member PaceFever79's Avatar
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    My original thought is still intact. If your steering is as bad as you are describing, you don't need an exotic rack, you just need to get what you have back up to proper operational specification.

  7. #32
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Generally the TRW racks were seen from 79-82. 1982 seems to be the year that Ford started introducing the Ford R&P or at least in the V8 cars from my experience. I have had both racks in two different 1982 GT's.

    The TRW rack is a 2 piece housing where the Ford rack is a single piece unit. That is the easiest way to tell the difference. If the rack is a Ford unit it would have to be a 83.5 or later for it to be a 15:1 unit from the information I have been able to find.

    Good Luck!

    Trey
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Awaiting Restoration
    1984 SVO Restoration in Progress
    1986 GT Wrecked by PO, but still want to save!

    Current Capris:
    1982 Capri Roller
    1984 Capri Returned to Bubble Back Glory
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts
    1982 Capri RS 5.0 4spd T-tops

  8. #33
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrEFI View Post
    Thanks for all those details! How much did all that run you? That filter is an add-on piece, right? That would be nice to have as mine is constantly filthy even after flush and fill.

    Out of curiosity, did SVOs have specific racks? Trey refers to 5.0 racks quite a bit, but not SVO. Maybe just a 15:1 with a specific turning radius?
    Yah i had a hard time keeping the car in the lane, especially when passed by a truck. Crazy loose.
    Worn inner tie rods. Pump and rack may have been mismatched or NG 20-6240 pump and 22-201T rack.
    But i waited until i was positive as to what combo of parts would work without issues.
    And only in-stock parts. Special orders are difficult to adjust if wrong and cannot check fit, have to wait, etc.
    I did bring the parts with me to be sure all fitting, etc were 100% correct before doing the job.
    Accuracy of the store computer varies and you will have to pick from multiple choices.
    Thus the homework. Many hours online. Several pages of notes.

    Master Pro PPS 71180 21-2194 ps pressure hose; O'reilly's 24.37
    Master Pro PPS 71116 ps return hose; O'reallys 13.77 plus the store had a cool car show going on!
    NPD McQuay-Norris M-3A130-A/ES2128 premium tie rod ends; 29.90 for both NPD
    NPD F3A713-2 3/8" id ps return hose 2'; 4.50 cut 2.25/ft
    Cardone Magna-Pure 20-0038F ps return line filter; Advance Auto 18.44 (comes apart for cleaning)
    Duralast 6439/244806/22-207 Ford 15:1 rack and pinion sport; Autozone 74.99 core 18
    Duralast 6199 power steering pump; AutoZone 41.99 core 9

    22-207 is stamped on the rack.

    Total 207.96 net, add cores or taxes say 250.00 - 25.00 bonus from AZ
    AZ gave a 25.00 credit on my AZ reward card for buying the parts there.
    Was DIY so no money was spent on outside labor.

    Replacing the whole shebang is the only way to go.
    Daily driver.
    Parts were selected for availability, durability/perceived quality, intended use/function, match, fair price, lifetime warranties.

    My notes say SVO may use 2 racks and pumps:
    22-207 perf + 6199 pump (Ford)
    22-203 non perf + 20-6247 pump (TRW?) Seen F and T version part numbers of the 203.
    suffix F is Ford, T is TRW
    Plus the 6439, 64163 part numbers appeared.

    I believe the 2.25 lock to lock rack is a 2.5 plus additional rack limiters.

    93 Cobras had similar part number choices

    Then there was the metric or SAE thread specs to deal with. Hoses, pump, rack.

    Some Mustang 79-93 rack numbers found:
    22-203T
    22-203F
    22-201T
    22-202F
    22-202T
    22-207
    11-0111
    6439
    64163
    6199
    6412 Pinto
    6416 Pinto
    Many different pumps.

    Then there is firm feel, plus all the other apps for Fairmont, LTD II, T-Bird, Lincoln, etc. Did not check those out.
    Last edited by gr79; 05-21-2017 at 12:23 AM.

  9. #34

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    My suspension components are all Mustang, so I'm sure Mustang steering is what I want, haha. But, man, if there were that many different parts, there's a pretty high likelihood I have a mismatch.

    I bought new lines somewhat recently. I hope I can use them!

    Can't argue with that price though!
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI T-5 (Mustang LWB)
    '17 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  10. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaceFever79 View Post
    My original thought is still intact. If your steering is as bad as you are describing, you don't need an exotic rack, you just need to get what you have back up to proper operational specification.
    I agree.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI T-5 (Mustang LWB)
    '17 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  11. #36
    FEP Super Member PaceFever79's Avatar
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    Something worth adding to the discussion of steering racks and "upgrades", in general, people like to tout the virtues of the sn95 rack because they feel more "center weighted" meaning it feels stiffer on center and tracks straighter. But that does come with a price, they (and most '90s racks for that matter) also don't turn in as quickly and require more movement off center before they begin to turn the vehicle. As I stated before and tried to show in the video, despite having a 20-1 ratio, the TRW rack is actually very responsive (perhaps too responsive!) as you move it off center, even slight movements change the direction of the car. The 15-1 racks are actually less responsive to small steering inputs. Some people prefer that "center weighted" feeling, because it feels more stable, others prefer the quicker steering response of the TRW rack. My opinion the main issue with the TRW rack is that it's overly assisted, and thus lacks road feel, but it is extremely sensitive to steering inputs. I think I will try experimenting with that adjustable pressure valve above and see if I can decrease the power assist a bit and get more feedback, if successful it should be the perfect rack... For me anyway!

  12. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaceFever79 View Post
    Something worth adding to the discussion of steering racks and "upgrades", in general, people like to tout the virtues of the sn95 rack because they feel more "center weighted" meaning it feels stiffer on center and tracks straighter. But that does come with a price, they (and most '90s racks for that matter) also don't turn in as quickly and require more movement off center before they begin to turn the vehicle. As I stated before and tried to show in the video, despite having a 20-1 ratio, the TRW rack is actually very responsive (perhaps too responsive!) as you move it off center, even slight movements change the direction of the car. The 15-1 racks are actually less responsive to small steering inputs. Some people prefer that "center weighted" feeling, because it feels more stable, others prefer the quicker steering response of the TRW rack. My opinion the main issue with the TRW rack is that it's overly assisted, and thus lacks road feel, but it is extremely sensitive to steering inputs. I think I will try experimenting with that adjustable pressure valve above and see if I can decrease the power assist a bit and get more feedback, if successful it should be the perfect rack... For me anyway!
    I imagine a guy could play with his alignment (caster, mostly) and see what he could do about steering feel too. 'Cuz that's what caster does, holds your wheels straight.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI T-5 (Mustang LWB)
    '17 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  13. #38
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    My take again on TRW vr and Ford 15:1. Fairly easy to compare in my situation.
    Both have steered my car. Same size tires, suspension parts, ie variables.
    Have been noting how the Ford differs on the same roads and turns driven many times.
    OEM was TRW vr HBC-V pump

    The Ford 15:1 has a heavier overall feel to me vs the prior two TRW 20:1's.
    More quicker directional change moving 'off center' on freeway.
    Took some getting used to.
    Not much wheel movement needed to correct straight line driving on either versions.
    Still has the factory rag joint!
    The TRW seemed more assisted with slightly more s wheel movement required for directional change.

    Cannot detect any changes to adapt to in parking maneuvers switching from TRW to Ford rack.
    Other than no more worry about tire rub on the front lower A arms when turning close to full lock.

    Steering car within lane is same accuracy with both.
    One steering test i use is to move and hold 1' or so nearer and away from white lane markers, same stretch of eway.
    No traffic nearby of course.
    Worn out parts resulting in more free play makes this maneuver much less accurate to do if at all.

    One particular left hand turn takes a little less of a wheel turn. Say from 1/2 lock to now 1/3-1/4, same street intersection.
    Another is a left turn intersection, then quickly sweeps right, now requires less wheel movement.
    Potholes, hazards, nutty drivers, need quick accurate corrections. The Ford rack seems more responsive to this.
    Exit ramps now require a little less turn of the wheel to ride the same line.
    Again, new rack is stamped 22-207. Best i can tell between 2.5 and 2.25 lock.

    Adjusting pressure will also affect flow? Response?

    Was going to switch the valve from an SVO pump i have before replacing the bad rack but never got around to it.
    The SVO pump has a HBC FM code. Pretty sure it was an 85.

    I assume different pumps affect on how the rack reacts.
    Same pumps, different relief valve springs?

    There are many HBC codes. The 90's on up are a whole 'nother deal as are the racks.
    So is anything installed in the other Fox chassis.
    Best bet when changing out is to match the pump to the rack as to specific app year and model.
    Mix match combos from different years will yield unknown results unless proven otherwise.

    HBC codes W, V, U, T, X, FM, FN, FX, later early 90's KB, KC.
    E7ZZ 3A674ABRM is one number that came up. HBC code? 1981-1989?
    Did find some Ford pump specs; Examples of GPM and max pressure:
    1.8/1050 for V (OEM on mine)
    1.9/1050 for W
    1.9/1200 for U
    1.9/1300 for T
    1.5/1050 for X

    Also found:
    1986 2.3 mustang/capri :
    4.9L/min (1.3 gal/min) minimum flow
    5860 kPa ( 850 PSI) Min. relief valve pressure
    7790 kPa (1130 PSI) Max. relief valve pressure
    Pump Model HBC-FM
    9.8 L/min (2.6 gal/min) Maximum free flow at 1500 RPM

    1986 5.0 mustang/capri (Manual):
    5.1L/min (1.35 gal/min) minimum flow
    6550 kPa ( 950 PSI) Min. relief valve pressure
    8480 kPa (1230 PSI) Max. relief valve pressure
    Pump Model HBC-FN
    9.8 L/min (2.6 gal/min) Maximum free flow at 1500 RPM

    1986 5.0 mustang/capri (Automatic):
    5.3L/min (1.4 gal/min) minimum flow
    6550 kPa ( 950 PSI) Min. relief valve pressure
    8480 kPa (1230 PSI) Max. relief valve pressure
    Pump Model HBU-FX
    9.8 L/min (2.6 gal/min) Maximum free flow at 1500 RPM

    No HB anything stickers on rebuilt ones.

    The #6199 pump i installed fits 2.3 turbo Mustangs from 1980 according to the AZ website.
    When deciding on retrofitting, went with 83 turbo and SVO apps for info, noting the 5.0 HO apps too.
    Could not take chances here with 90's or beyond parts requiring who knows what else to make them work.
    1979 model year is like Ford still used 1970's era parts, for for one, steering.
    Last edited by gr79; 12-13-2015 at 10:33 AM.

  14. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by gr79 View Post
    1979 model year is like Ford still used 1970's era parts, for for one, steering.
    I'd agree with that. When I first got my car and drove it daily with all the original Zephyr components, which were in good shape, I always said it drove like an unloaded truck. Floaty ride, TONS of body roll on corners, numb, sloppy, overboosted steering... and this was supposed to be a "handling package" car!
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI T-5 (Mustang LWB)
    '17 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  15. #40

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    Okay, y'all. I happened to be under the car today and took some pics of the rack. What is it?


    Looks like one piece, so I'll say it's a Ford rack of some kind.


    I'm guessing this number is probably one of those stupid useless "engineering numbers" that doesn't tell us squat, but I thought I'd include it anyway.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI T-5 (Mustang LWB)
    '17 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  16. #41

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    Well, did a little bit of my own research and it looks to me like that number was cast on every single Ford rack ever.

    Plenty of question posts (what does this number mean), but no answers.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI T-5 (Mustang LWB)
    '17 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  17. #42
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Last edited by gr79; 12-13-2015 at 11:00 AM.

  18. #43

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    Hmm, if you follow these deciphering charts, it's a Fairmont rack! "E0BC" = 1980 Fairmont chassis part. Although shouldn't the 1980 Fairmonts have had the TRW rack? This makes less and less sense as we get into it. I've seen links where people have said their SN95 rack has that part number on it too.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI T-5 (Mustang LWB)
    '17 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  19. #44

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    Brad,

    The number on the rack is the part number for the rack housing.

    The part number for the rack assembly is called an SPR code. It is located in the location shown in the photos below. I suggest rubbing the area with the SPR code with a wire brush. This will create more contrast, making it easier to read the code. The second line of text is a production date code.

    http://www.terminator-cobra.com/imag...ringRackID.jpg

    http://www.terminator-cobra.com/images/SPR-VT.jpg
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  20. #45

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    BTW, the TRW racks are much slower steering than the 15:1 Ford racks.

    TRW on center steering ratio is 20.03:1
    TRW at stop steering ratio is 16.05:1

    Ford 20:1 rack on center steering ratio is 20.00:1
    Ford 20:1 rack at stop steering ratio is 15.97:1

    Post 1987 Ford 20:1 racks have a different ratio than the above.

    Ford 15:1 rack on center steering ratio is 14.7:1
    Ford 15:1 rack at stop steering ratio is 13.2:1

    Note that the Ford 15:1 ratio racks are constant rack ratio, and the other racks are variable ratio racks. The rack ratio in these cases is the ratio of steering wheel rotation to steering axis rotation, so it isn't constant even if the rack is a constant ratio rack.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  21. #46

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    Cool thanks, I'll look for that! Makes sense about the housing number too.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI T-5 (Mustang LWB)
    '17 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  22. #47

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    Alright, here we go.



    SPR DB
    87A 14C

    So then it's an '87 model.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI T-5 (Mustang LWB)
    '17 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  23. #48

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    Standard 15:1 high effort 1987-91 rack.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  24. #49

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    According to this thread:

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...is-in-my-Capri

    A guys posts that his SPR-DB rack is from an LX 5.0 and is 15:1. But we still don't know if it's the performance suspension one. Or do we? I didn't know there WERE 20:1 Ford racks.

    I've seen plenty of guys say you can use the SPR code to tell you what you've got, but no specific information. That "How to Get a Terminator Rack" link has a bunch of them, but they're all '94 and up.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI T-5 (Mustang LWB)
    '17 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  25. #50
    FEP Super Member JTurbo's Avatar
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    Lots of good info/reading in this thread....
    1979 Indy Pace Car Mustang 302 / 5spd
    1982 Mustang GT T-Top 302 / 4spd
    1986 SVO Mustang - 1C

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