Holley Carb Jetting

[80Merccapri]

Im trying to increase the jet size in my holley 5200 slightly, its from a 1980 Mercury Capri 2.3 liter, it has long tube headers, crane cam, no cats or muffler, egr delete, air pump delete, dist, 3.73 gears, etc etc...Where would I find jets for this carb at and what would be good sizes to increase to, right now its has 207 pri and 183 sec. idle jets are 190 pri and 150 sec. Thanks

[Ethyl Cat]

Can you measure the id of the jets? We could possibly run an area calculation and just drill out what you have

[80Merccapri]

Okay so it turns out that I have no idea what size my idle jets are but the 190 and 150 are the air bleeds. As for the main jets the primary has the number 207 on it and the secondary has 183? I heard that the weber dfv and dfev jets are the same for the Holley 5200, is this true because weber jets I can only find 200 and 210 but no 207? So is that my jet size or is there something else to this that I'm missing. Thanks

[Ethyl Cat]

http://www.carburetion.com/Weber/weberDGEVparts.asp

[80Merccapri]

Thanks for the info, I'm just confused on what jets are in my carb now. Trying to figure it out so I know what I could increase the sizes to. I read that the 207 and 183 numbers could be the flow for the jets and not the jet sizes?

[Ethyl Cat]

http://www.mazdatrucking.com/B2200/5200.html

[80Merccapri]

Im still at a loss as to why the jets are brass and one is labled 207 and one at 183, green jets are supposed to be labled in flow cc, but mine are brass. And i cant even find anything on the two sizes I have?

[xctasy]

Its really easy. The Feds needed better traceablity for emissions purposes.

The Weber 5 Micron Step Jets Verses CC per minute Flow Rate interchange lookes like this



I've found in addition to yours that there are many other "cat era" flow rate jet steps.


A normal 207 or 183 are finer steps than the stock Weber jets, which weren't worth a knob of goat turds in the accuracy required in the post 1975 emissions era, so Ford requested close limit jets in cc/min flow rates.
A 207 is more than a Weber 125 micronthou,
a 183 is less than a Weber 120 micron jet.


Bascially, there are

1. the Weber DG jets in 5 micron step size,
2. the Holley Weber 5200/5210/5220/6500/6510/6520 Jets in micron size or thousanths of an inch,

and then

3. the emissions era close limit jets in cc/minute.

They exist in three types and four colors because they were made in five different places...Spain(Bressel), Italy, the USA by Holley/Colt Industires

and as replacements via Holleys Colt industry suppliers, who were then bought out by Carter, and then Edelbrock made some jets for some special Power Jet adaptors.


Weber jets are generally sized to the nearest 5 microns, then later on went to closer 1 mircron steps. The early coarse limit stuff is all I have. Since being a Four Eyed Pride member, I've found a whole list of other jets and emulsion/well tubes, and there are many ways to Rome, not every jetting solution is the same due to the huge range of alternations from 1969 Weber DGAV, to the 1970-1982 Ford/GM/Mopar/AMC Holley Weber, and now to the latests Pierce Weber

The following have some approximate jet sizes for NON CLOSE LIMIT Holley Webers


They don't match with the factory close limit jets.

The graph above

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/..._Flow_Rate.jpg

is accurate, it was posted back in 2001 by another forum member, and its perfect. The one I list below is a bit ropey at the 209 cc/min level where the call size is acutally 121 micron:-*
103 cc/min=105 microns, or 41.34 thou
128 cc/min=110 microns, or 43.31 thou*
152 cc/min=115 microns, or 45.28 thou*
178 cc/min=120 microns, or 47.24 thou*
201 cc/min=125 microns, or 49.21 thou*
225 cc/min=130 microns, or 51.18 thou
251 cc/min=135 microns, or 53.15 thou
275 cc/min=140 microns, or 55.12 thou
298 cc/min=145 microns, or 57.09 thou
325 cc/min=150 microns, or 59.06 thou*
346 cc/min=155 microns, or 61.02 thou
375 cc/min=160 microns, or 62.99 thou
400 cc/min=165 microns, or 64.96 thou*
425 cc/min=170 microns, or 66.93 thou*
450 cc/min=175 microns, or 68.90 thou*
475 cc/min=180 microns, or 70.87 thou
525 cc/min=185 microns, or 72.83 thou*


Note Well

GM was busy certifiying the 1973 Cosworth Vega with twin Webers, and the Federal emissions tests failed, and so both Flint, Dearborn and everyone else had to totally rework the Holley Weber to get it to pass the Fed Sniffer test. They failed again in the early 80's, and Ford bailed on the Holley Weber in favour of an electronic YFA Carter and a new small Ford Escort Front Drive 180 cfm 5740 series Carter Weber. Those Escort Carter Webers are a great source for close limit jets as well.


See http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...ft-5200-2bbl-s

[xctasy]

best info

Jet 157 cm³/minute (xxx micron)
Jet 167 cm³/minute (xxx micron)
Jet 171 cm³/minute (xxx micron)
Jet 209 cm³/minute (xxx micron)
Jet 219 cm³/minute (xxx micron)
Jet 227 cm³/minute (130 micron)
Jet 239 cm³/minute (132 micron)
Jet 243 cm³/minute (133 micron)
Jet 255 cm³/minute (135 micron)
Jet 259 cm³/minute ( Not listed Stock 5200 turbo is according to gr79, 259-283)
Jet 263 cm³/minute (137 micron)
Jet 275 cm³/minute (140 micron)
Jet 283 cm³/minute (142 micron)
Jet 299 cm³/minute (145 micron)
Jet 311 cm³/minute (147 micron)
Jet 325 cm³/minute (150 micron)
Jet 346 cm³/minute (155 micron)
Jet 357 cm³/minute (157 micron)
Jet 404 cm³/minute (165 micron)
Jet 423 cm³/minute (170 micron)
Jet 455 cm³/minute (175 micron)
Jet 477 cm³/minute (180 micron)
Jet 524 cm³/minute (185 micron)

gr79 again

"A 283 secondary jet and a 259 primary indicate a 2.3T w/ac.
The 275 is a secondary jet for a non ac turbo.
The bigger 275 for a primary may not be that far off with today's fuel blends, compared to 1979".

It could be the wrong carb. Non-turbo 2.3 5200 series carbs run too lean,
have a 22mm primary venturi vs turbo 26mm .
Turbo cars need more fuel and air.
I got the wrong one s.o. directly from holley even after using the original carb tag to order it!
The jets were too small-car was a dog with no bark. Found that out after a weeks worth of checking everything else.
After changing some parts over from the old carb, car easily ran fast enough to get a ticket or two.

If you have the money and the 150 carb is a real turbo calibrated one, it might be worth it to get it. Keep the running one as a spare.

If the regular carb has certain vacuum fittings on the air horn, unique to the turbo carb, it can be made to work fine by swapping the internal parts for the correct ones. This is why a turbo carb is nice to have-it has the parts already in it. Like where does one find a store selling a 259, 263, 275, or 283 main jet?
The main well tubes might be correct. High speed bleeds may not be.

Open it up. In 79 carb id were
D9ZE-ND tag.. 259 primary/283 secondary, main jets (a/c car)
D9ZE-MD tag.. 263/275 (non-a/c).
both have 14R974 main well tubes, HS bleeds 185/195 prime/sec
Accel pump lever location on #3 bottom
All other specs same as non turbo.

info base http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...-carb-upgrades
Main Jet Conversions
Green Jets Brass Jets Green Jets Brass Jets
124-227 22R-103-130 124-325 22R-103-150
124-239 22R-103-132 124-346 22R-103-155
124-243 22R-103-133 124-357 22R-103-157
124-255 22R-103-135 124-374 22R-103-160
124-263 22R-103-137 124-404 22R-103-165
124-275 22R-103-140 124-423 22R-103-170
124-283 22R-103-142 124-455 22R-103-175
124-299 22R-103-145 124-477 22R-103-180
124-311 22R-103-147 124-524 22R-103-185

[80Merccapri]

Thanks that was the answer I was looking for, I talked to a carb builder the other day and he suggested some new jets to try out. So there on the way he suggested 3 new main pri's and 3 new main sec so that i could have some to play with and see which works best. The pri he suggested were 155-165 and than the sec were 185-195. He said the ones that were in my carb now were really small and with my modifications and what I use the car for I needed to increase the jet size. He also suggested air bleeds to go with the main jets. Thanks again for the response

[gr79]

Never did figure out exactly what the jet number meant on these carbs.
Other than marking small to larger in size by the number stamp.
Most old or regular Holley carbs only use 2 digits on the jet.

With 3 digits, the factory seemed to calibrate carb spread of the last two numbers within 10-25 units.

Right now i would swap the positions of the 2 jets already in there.
Small one in primary, larger one in secondary. From 207/183 to 183/207.
Leave bleeds, tubes, timing, in the same position for now.
Adjust idle and mix as required, then drive it for a day or a month under various conditions if engine seems better.
Somehow, as with me, you will know when both the engine and yourself are happy without any doubts.
Has taken me 1000's of miles, even years, fiddling with things, to get there.

Figure a stock 79-80 carb turbo engine was rated what? 130-150 hp
Figure a turbo carb (slightly larger than a n/a carb) fed this with a little room to spare (rich side when not under boost).
The early turbo cars also have larger fuel lines and V8 radiator..

The engine in my car is a dog with anything under 200 size jet, compared to anything over 200.
(<200's were found installed in a Holley rebuilt turbo carb i ordered.)
Swapping my old turbo carb parts into it corrected the significant power loss.

Experimenting with a n/a carb, engine ran decent with low 200's sizes. 25+ mpg.
At the time, the turbocharger was shot, so engine was not boosted.
Had to seriously fool with the vac lines to get everything to run right.

Engine is stock, except for Ranger header, slightly bigger cam, stock exhaust sys, 345 gear.
Ran that n/a carb until i came across another good turbo carb and another turbocharger.
Vac hose routing needed to be changed around again back to what it was.
A vacuum gauge was/is very important to getting engine/carb right and keeping it that way.

[80Merccapri]

I have several older jets lying around and i swapped the 207 in the primary already and have a 223 in the secondary and the car seems a little beter but still needs more jet. It had 143 pri and 223 sec from the factory and I increased to the 183 primary awhile back and left the 223 in. My original carb from the car had 183 pri and 207 sec. We will see how much the jetting helps the car, right now my plugs are reading lean and im getting a slight lean miss.

[IDMooseMan]

Subscribing for the fantastic info contained in this thread. This will save me from having to ask about carb jetting when I start working on my Ghia.

[gr79]

Could always try the 223 in the primary.

Jets and drill size chart:
https://www.google.com/search?q=holl...%3B1600%3B1090

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...boosters-tech/

[gr79]

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...eed+air+bleeds

[80Merccapri]

I have a 207 in the primary right now with a 185 air jet and a 223 secondary with a 160 air jet, car still has a miss though. Its weird idle to 2500 rpm the miss is steady out the exhaust and when i rev to about 3000 rpm the miss only happens every ten seconds or so. Thought for sure it was a lean miss but plugs are reading perfect and car still has a miss. The higher the rpm the fewer times the miss happens, got me stumped.

[gr79]

Id say you are on the right track.
Check underhood on a dark night for any occasional tracking ignition sparks.
Recently found this intermittent problem one night around the primary coil pack tower on my Ranger.
Even with dielectric, clean terminals. and sound wire boots.
A new coil pack totally fixed that.

I do all my carb tuning using a hand held vac gauge, along with a A pillar pod mount vac/boost Autometer.
Hand held is good for at tuning at home and temp install for actual road testing.
In car is vital to monitor what's going on when driving.

The idle mix screw should give good adjustment for highest solid steady vac at idle when warmed up.
Engine speed should change when a vac line is removed from manifold.

Have noticed on my setup there is a little bit of filtered air entering the manifold, bypassing the metering part of the carb!
This is what vac diagrams also show. With a check valve. Strange, but makes a diff.

Weird idle. She should idle good and steady, unless real radical.
For sure these carbs need cleaning every so often and reverse air blasting the circuits.
One tiny piece of gasket or dirt cause cause havoc.
Cracked/misrouted vac line, failing coil connector, failing dist pickup wire, failing plug wire. PCV.
Look inside the carb when running and make sure no fuel is dripping every now and then.

My weird idle with the n/a carb was vac line related. The charcoal canister was another part of it.

State of tune today is the engine pulled from 1200 rpm in all gears, no knock or lugging, on Marathon 87 RON.
Solid 18+ vac reading and idle rpm once warmed up. Motorcraft pcv, wires, cap, rotor, AGSF 32C plugs.
Have to mention this merely to state it is possible with a carb turbo 2.3 no matter what anyone says or believes.

[80Merccapri]

alot of good info here, Im deff going to check for tracking in the dark most likely tomorrow night. The only vac lines on the car are the vac tree to dist and the vac tree to pcv and than pcv to the carb base plate, all other are blocked off with vac caps (antique plates no emissions) so unless when I was removing vac lines I took off something that was needed other than those lines I have? I have my vapor canister removed on my car and the line plugged on the carb for it, but the line that runs on the passenger side of the car (rubber hose than goes into plastic) is not hooked up or blocked off. Its the line that runs through the passenger side firewall, not sure where it goes or if it needs to be plugged? Thanks

[gr79]

The line on the pass side firewall should lead to the fuel tank.
Thru plastic hoses that crack.
Cant explain it but car runs much better with most of the canister taps reconnected.

Have spent many hours switching lines since i too removed most of the emissions.
Using diagrams as a guide, went with what worked best for driveability.
Reconnected some parts deleted like canister to carb.
That corrected a fuel drip in the n/a carb venturis when engine was shut down.
That dripping was a problem. Hard start when warm, bad/no idle and huge low end flat spot/bog.

Was part of the idea i was on to something.
Soon after, hit a combo of adjustments that jumped the mileage from 18 to 25+.
Whoo. 4.00 gal x 60 miles a day was an inspiration for sure.
The turbo carb change dropped this back to a normal 22+.
The change was needed because i reinstalled and reconnected a working turbocharger.

All this is mental notes of some of what i went thru.
The quest of high fuel mileage while unlocking extra power if it is there.

Experimenting worked for me.
After what, 2 years, found what worked and not, under all conditions.
Eventually found vac connection combos that worked by trial and error and luck.
Apparently all that was needed was the carb needing and getting correct vac signals to operate.
Have not fooled with anything in quite a while nor feel i have to other than maintenance.

Connecting things exactly like the book did not work but gave clues as to what did what.

Like the dist adv line. Mine is not connected where it should be and works fine.

[80Merccapri]

Maybe i should re install the vapor canister and give it a go, I just didnt notice the engine running rough when I first took everything off. For the first 2 or 3 months the car ran great and was getting decent mileage, now all of a sudden boom car runs with a miss. You can hear it in the exhaust going puff puff puff real fast at 2000 rpm and can feel the exhaust almost stop blowing everytime it does it than all of a sudden you get that hard puff that you can feel. 3000 rpm the puff is very few in far between but in the lower rpms you can hear it and feel it. Ive heard of people going dist advance to carb and than some go dist adv to vac tree, where is yours located at? thanks for the info though, deff takes alot of undoing and redoing to figure this stuff out, thankfully enough people have done it and can save everyone else some time and headache.

[gr79]

Got my dis adv connected to manifold tree.
That is not where it was from the factory but runs better there for some reason.

I read your other post. You have done your homework.
The hard part is going back and remembering what changes if any were made.
2-3 months ok
Seasonal fuel blend change?
As if something is building up and releasing, more so at low rpm.

When engine is cold, i have to keep the idle up with pedal until driven a few miles.
Usually stalls on the first stop sign, especially when cold out then is ok..
Has always done that from day one.

I get that idle miss from time to time but only when idling. No tach jump. It goes away.
Never any miss at rpm.

My Ranger has a problem with i believe the crank sensor wire. Will take it in soon.
That thing bucks and backfires, tach needle jumps on its own, then the computer adjusts, tach quits, and engine runs smooth again.

A long time ago had a miss. Took it to the dealer.
Replaced the horseshoe connector and one plug wire.
They looked good to me.
They also removed a Mallory coil booster thing i installed.

Also had to replace the dist coil pickup assy back in the 80's.
The little wires fatigue near the the side of dist.
The vac adv inside moves and the wires have to bend a tiny bit.
Intermittent ign cut out.

A shop with scope can be hooked up to check things.
Something beyond DIY.

[80Merccapri]

Yea going back it had the miss before I put in a new cam or any of that. I just switched from the old headers to the speedway longtubes with 3 inch collector, deleted the egr and blocked it off and removed the cats and muffler. The car has about 2 feet of exhaust pipe it goes a foot back from the collector than about 18 inches out to the side and exits right behind the front passenger wheel. When I first did this I had no miss at all and car ran great, now I have the miss and car runs rough at idle and low rpm. So I thought since it worked fine before maybe a gasket wore out or a vac line was slit or dry rotted. Today i went out with carb cleaner around the intake, carb base and carb adapter plate with no change, hit the pcv and vac tree ports no change. Even hit the brake booster line where it meets the booster no change at all so im starting to rule out vac leaks. I replaced the entire ignition system and that had no change, unless i have a gremlin somewhere that is cutting power to the coil at lower rpms but that just does not seem right? The miss is so bad at one point I was cruising in a parking lot and boom miss happened and the hole car stopped accelerating, but if im cruising along in 1st gear and slam the pedal to the floor the tires chirp and the thing just takes off? Now from what I understand with the holley 5200 is when you hit the gas at all you no longer use the idle jet and go to the main jet, I was thinking maybe the idle jet was clogged and thats where the miss at idle was coming from? But that dosent make sense because it misses even at 3000 rpm just not as bad. Im to the point where i checked everything 3 times with no luck and am scratching my head on this one, car needs to be re painted and wanted to figure this out before getting it done.

[gr79]

Debris in jet
Idle jet clog

Debris in main jet pretty much shuts down the motor when crusing. No fuel.
Idle circuit can get a tiny piece of something and maybe be trapped going back and forth in a passageway.
If you take out the idle jet and spray in there i think it comes out at a hole near the air bleeds, venturi area.
I then spray backwards so the spray comes out the idle jet hole.

One night coming home from a cruise, the car started to act up.
Engine would only run at idle or full throttle. No middle.
Pulled into a 7-11 and parked on the side where the building lights lit the work area.
Pulled the carb top. Found tiny pieces of something black in the float bowl.
And some in the primary jet.
What? The clear Fram FG something fuel filter missed this?

Cleaned bowl out with a rag and kept the little piece of debris to take home for a closer look.
Car ran fine again all the way home.

Under a magnifying glass, it was a piece of the black carb to air horn gasket.
Removing the top multiple times wore out the gasket and it started to come apart.

OK
I figure:
Debris was at bottom of bowl- at idle
Debris did not affect idle circuit- car ran at idle
Debris got sucked up and blocked the primary jet- no fuel to primary main circuit
Debris was not found in secondary jet- provided all the missing fuel only at WOT

When i get a spare carb ready, it gets stripped to the bone and cleaned by a carb shop.
Then i reassemble it myself. Done it many times.
And a new bowl gasket if required.
I keep all spare carb parts in a clear divider type plastic box.
Spare gaskets, floats, in the home toolbox.

When 80's emissions are removed, it kind of kicks back the engine config to the 60's-70's era.
Thus, that is how i approach basic work on this area.
Vac gauges were one of the tools used back then for engine diagnosis. Hand held versions are inexpensive.

Adding that i ran a 5200 carb conversion on my 1970 Beetle 1600. Got it to run real good.
Helped me learn more about tuning these things.
Before that, ran a Holley 585 4v on my 67 Mustang 289. Same thing. Had to play with it.

[80Merccapri]

I had my carb apart a few times this week and replaced jets, sprayed carb with cleaner wiped out the fuel bowl etc, when the car misses I decided to look down the carb and hold the throttle and plenty of gas goes down the primary throat. Constant flow and the miss still persists. Its amazing how many times you do something or take it apart how fast you can do things.