My Capri RS 5 lug swap thread With questions

[SchoolBoy]

SAM_0320 by capri_nut82, on Flickr

Alright everyone, the goal here is to take ^^my Capri RS above^^ and put the 94-97 factory Cobra rims on it without widening the track width to avoid rubbing while adding 03-04 cobra spec calipers.


The car as you see it sitting above has these mods to it:
-Up Front-
FMS-M-3075-A Front A-Arms
Steeda Sport Springs 1 1/4 drop 650 rating
Koni Single adjustable struts
Steeda Caster Camber Plates
Stock 10" 4 lug brakes

-Out Back-
Stock 4 lug drums
steeda weight jacker lower control arms
Steeda aluminum upper control arms
Koni single adjustable shocks
Steeda sport springs 250 rating


I want the car to ride on these 94-97 Cobra wheels.....

96 cobra wheel by capri_nut82, on Flickr


After Reading the "The Ultimate Four Eyed Fox 5-Lug Conversion Thread" sticky I have a ruff list but still have questions so far this is what I know I will need, but please help me fill in the blanks. If you know the part numbers or have links please go ahead and post them and I will add them to the list. Ideally when I am all done I will have everything listed below so other members can use it as a shopping list!



For the front:
94-95 spindles off any sn95 v6, gt, or cobra with the mounting ears trimmed for the calipers
5lug hubs...... Can you get these without abs rings?
Spacers to go under the spindle at the ball joint....
99-04 Cobra PBR Calipers
Caliper rebuild kits, where to get those?
Brackets for the calipers.... Are they specific to the cobra calipers?
Dust shields.......But what ones work v6, GT, Cobra?
13" Rotors...... weren't the 03-04 cobras thicker brembo rotors? I also prefer plain or slotted only
Hawk HPS pads
Which brake lines for the Cobra PBR's to Fox body, these from MM. http://www.maximummotorsports.com/MM...ont-P1341.aspx
Will my Konis bolt up to the new spindles with some shims or are the bolt holes in the wrong spot?


For the Rear:
North Racecars fox width Cobra Brackets for the 11.63" rotor
Do dust shields still work with these, if so witch ones?
Cobra calipers..... 94-04 cobra are all the same right?
Are the Brackets unique to the cobra calipers?
Anti moan brackets.... Must come from a cobra mach1 or bullet.
Rotors.... can anyone recommend a brand?
Hawk HPS pads
Brake lines?
Parking brake cables? These http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/...ar-Disc-Brakes ?
Axles..... Will ranger axels work, do I need a hub spacer with those?

Under the Hood:
Stock booster
94 Cobra 15/16" Master Cylinder
Proportioning Valve mod with plug http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/...ing-Valve-Plug
Adjustable Proportioning Valve
Any lines needed?
these I believe should take care of the PV http://www.maximummotorsports.com/Ma...ang-P1273.aspx

As for the rotors and pads This is going to be mainly street driven with some auto cross and maybe one open track day a year if I'm lucky.
I am also torn on the front calipers, not sure if I want the ones that say cobra, roush, Baer, or find plane ones and have RS, or MotorSport, put on them.




Thanks in advance for your guys help on this!


Strap in and enjoy the ride!...Nelson

[Killingcivics]

V6 and gt are the same. If you want cobra 13" front brakes however you need to get cobra brackets and parts.

However the carriers and calipers for the 13 inch cobra brakes are often available from car parts stores for under 300$ for the pair.

I recently started this trip by purchasing a 95 v6 for 400$ in order to have all the parts and cores. My difference is that I will be using wider track rear end. For now I will keep the v6 master, and the v6 calipers,etc. My car is basicaly a long term basketcase project which I should have done in the next ten years haha.

[SchoolBoy]

Long term basket case, yep been saying that for the last 10 years.

After looking around I realized the 94-04 v6, gt, and cobra rear calipers are all the same only the mounting bracket on the cobras are different. This is great knews for me because I might find the calipers in the JY.

[BMW Rider]

I got the North Racing five lug Cobra brakes for my 79 front and rear and the axles from him. I can give you a few answers at least.


5lug hubs...... Can you get these without abs rings? They all appear to come with the ABS ring. However, it does not interfere if there is no ABS or the rings can be easily removed as they are simply pressed on (which is what I did).
Dust shields.......But what ones work v6, GT, Cobra? I don't plan to run dust shields, but I expect you'd need the Cobra ones to match the discs.
13" Rotors...... weren't the 03-04 cobras thicker brembo rotors? I also prefer plain or slotted only. North Racing supplies plain rotors.
Hawk HPS pads
Which brake lines for the Cobra PBR's to Fox body, these from MM. http://www.maximummotorsports.com/MM...ont-P1341.aspx That is the set I used
Will my Konis bolt up to the new spindles with some shims or are the bolt holes in the wrong spot? Not sure, but my spindles fit my MM struts without any shims


For the Rear:
North Racecars fox width Cobra Brackets for the 11.63" rotor
Do dust shields still work with these, if so witch ones? They do have tabs for dust shield to attach, again, likely specific to the disc size as with the fronts.
Brake lines? I got the MM kit MMBK2P

Under the Hood:
Stock booster
94 Cobra 15/16" Master Cylinder I chose a Ranger MC with the 15/16 bore as the lines are on the opposite side to clear the engine side better. I'm going with manual brakes though, so not going to have issues with the strut tower either.
Any lines needed? I would anticipate having to modify or make new lines. I will be custom making all the lines for my car as I don't think I could find a pre-made kit that would come close to fitting all the mixed bag of components I'm using.


As for the rotors and pads This is going to be mainly street driven with some auto cross and maybe one open track day a year if I'm lucky.
I am also torn on the front calipers, not sure if I want the ones that say cobra, roush, Baer, or find plane ones and have RS, or MotorSport, put on them. Mine are plain, I did paint them red. Lettering doesn't make them work better. get whatever you find or get the best price on.

[SchoolBoy]

Good info bmw rider! Did you put anti moan brackets on the rears? I have read that the sn95 bullet anti moan brackets were slightly shorter than the cobras so they fit without mods on an 8.8.

[RSmerc]

I used the 94/5 cobra master when I converted it. With the stock '83 booster, it has a little harder feel from stock, which I liked. I also bought the MM brake line kit for the master to the prop valve, which didnt fit. The 94/5 cobra masters do have a bubble flare fitting on them, so I ended up going to an Auto Zone and getting a pre-made bubble flair to double flare line and bent it to fit.

I also used the 94/5 axles. If I did it again, I would probably go with the north racecars brackets and axles only due to the amount of wheels that fit with that setup. I spent meny hours researching wheels that would fit the front and rear with my setup. And the tire/wheel calculator became my best friend.http://rimsntires.com/specspro.jsp

[BMW Rider]

Good info bmw rider! Did you put anti moan brackets on the rears? I have read that the sn95 bullet anti moan brackets were slightly shorter than the cobras so they fit without mods on an 8.8.

No anti moan brackets, just the North Racing caliper mounts.

[SchoolBoy]

Rsmerc, what did you use for front calipers?

[RSmerc]

At first I used the entire setup off a 95 gt, then swapped to 95 cobra style rotors and calipers

[SchoolBoy]

I just ordered 04 cobra calipers with brackets. They are centric part numbers: 141.61097, 141.61098. Supposedly these will be rebuilt calipers, brackets, but no poweder coat or paint.

[qtrracer]

I'll add my $.02 FWIW


For the front:
94-95 spindles off any sn95 v6, gt, or cobra with the mounting ears trimmed for the calipers Not necessary unless you are using the 99+ GT/V6 calipers
5lug hubs...... Can you get these without abs rings? Not anymore as mentioned above.
Spacers to go under the spindle at the ball joint.... Will be required. However, using the sn95 spindle on the early K-member cars will cause the loss of nearly or all of available negative camber. Result will be the top of the tire will be tilting outboard. CC plates will be needed to recover some of this. May want to consider the longer sn95 A-arms
99-04 Cobra PBR Calipers These are the 40.5MM calipers. For better F/R brake torque balance, use the earlier (94-98 ) 38MM version.
Caliper rebuild kits, where to get those?. Don't bother. Most of the time the used stuff works fine, or use them as cores and get rebuilt units.
Brackets for the calipers.... Are they specific to the cobra calipers? There are two kinds of "brackets" - F&R. On the front, the caliper cage is the bracket and bolts directly to the spindle. On the rear the cage is NOT the bracket but needed to bolt the caliper unit to the bracket. Side note here. There are two rear cages: the Cobra has a bar across the face; the GT/V6 does not. To run Cobra rotors either works but the GT/v6 may need some minor mods for the larger caliper. The rear axle bracket comes in two sizes; Cobra for the 11.65" rotor; GT/v6 for the 10.5" rotor. You will need the NRC, SSBC or similar bracket for the correct rotor size to run stock fox axles. I do not recommend the cutting mod to stock brackets.
Dust shields.......But what ones work v6, GT, Cobra? Why? I've run without them for years. On the other hand, they do make a great mounting point for cooling ducts. If you must run them, get them for the spindle being used - 94/95 or 96-04. LMR or E-bay.
13" Rotors...... weren't the 03-04 cobras thicker brembo rotors? I also prefer plain or slotted only. No - all stock Brembo rotors for the Cobras are the same. However, Brembo discontinued making them years ago. Just buy some blanks from NAPA or your favorite supply store. If you want slotted, I can supply a great resource; I buy most if not all of my rotors from that supplier.
Hawk HPS pads. These are a perfect street/track/auto-x pad. Low dust, and rotor friendly. Be sure to use a high tem fluid like Motul 600.
Which brake lines for the Cobra PBR's to Fox body, these from MM. http://www.maximummotorsports.com/MM...ont-P1341.aspx Yes - this is the prefect kit since no adaptors are needed. Use the SN95 rear set (not IRS).
Will my Konis bolt up to the new spindles with some shims or are the bolt holes in the wrong spot? They should since the earlier spindle has a wider mounting flange than the later; spacers will be required.


For the Rear:
North Racecars fox width Cobra Brackets for the 11.63" rotor Yes - see above
Do dust shields still work with these, if so witch ones? Yes; any of the sn95 stockers work with both Cobra and Gt/v6 brakes
Cobra calipers..... 94-04 cobra are all the same right? Nope - see above.
Are the Brackets unique to the cobra calipers? Yes - see above
Anti moan brackets.... Must come from a cobra mach1 or bullet. Don't think they are needed with the Fox length axles - at least I didn't need them
Rotors.... can anyone recommend a brand? See above.
Hawk HPS pads Yes - see above
Brake lines? Two issues. The earlier cars had the rear lines in a different place (PS) than the later cars (center). May need to reroute. Once you have the lines in the right spot, you can use the sn95 rear braided lines to the calipers and from the axle to the chassis.
Parking brake cables? These http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/...ar-Disc-Brakes ? Don't know for sure but NRC has the correct ones for you build.
Axles..... Will ranger axels work, do I need a hub spacer with those? Yes and Yes - go to Discbrakesrus for the spacers - about $18.

Under the Hood:
Stock booster Depends whether still in good shape. I used my stock 86 which is still going strong
94 Cobra 15/16" Master Cylinder Your call; but if you use those 99+ cobra calipers, consider using the 1" 93 Cobra M/C
Proportioning Valve mod with plug http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/...ing-Valve-Plug Yes or the MM version.
Adjustable Proportioning Valve Yes - e.g., Wilwood
Any lines needed? Perhaps; depends on the condition and placement of the stockers.
these I believe should take care of the PV http://www.maximummotorsports.com/Ma...ang-P1273.aspx I used the MM kit for my 93 Cobra M/C; easy to do.

As for the rotors and pads This is going to be mainly street driven with some auto cross and maybe one open track day a year if I'm lucky.
I am also torn on the front calipers, not sure if I want the ones that say cobra, roush, Baer, or find plane ones and have RS, or MotorSport, put on them.




Thanks in advance for your guys help on this!


Strap in and enjoy the ride!...Nelson

Have fun and good luck.

[SchoolBoy]

qtrracer, The car already has steeda caster camber plates so I should be good there.

As for the 38mm vs 40.5mm front calipers I already bought the 40.5mm units as they were only $260 total for both rebuilt front calipers and brackets. I don't however understand the F/R torque balance as the 11.63 rear rotor, caliper, and cobra cage system was used with: the 38mm 94-98 cobra calipers, the 99-04 40.5mm calipers, plus the 00 cobra R Brembo 4piston units? Also Since I have the 40.5mm calipers in the mail what is the advantage of the 1"bore 93 cobra MC vs the 15-16" bore 94-95? My booster is original so it probably could be replaced not sure if there is a test to check its health?

As for the rear axle flange bracket I will be using the NRC units. I simply would not trust my life to the factory units that have been cut "by me no less."

As for the dust shields, yes I am working on a designing some air ducts to the rotors. I'm thinking the scoops can be in the outer most opening of the lower bumper. if they are painted black you might not even notice them.

I would be interested in your source for the slotted rotors?

As for the rear brake lines, the pic below is the current set up on my 8.8....
SAM_0249 by capri_nut82, on Flickr

So what would I need to make the cobra brakes work with this set up? A 87-93 hard line under the car, to what body-axle flex line, to sn95 hard lines out to the cobra flex lines for the calipers?

[qtrracer]

qtrracer, The car already has steeda caster camber plates so I should be good there.

. As long as those plates provide enough camber adjustment. If not, an old trick is to elongate the bottom strut mount bolt hole so the spindle bottom can be pulled outboard. Doesn't take much. Be sure to check tire/strut clearance through the entire turning range (weight on car of course).

As for the 38mm vs 40.5mm front calipers I already bought the 40.5mm units as they were only $260 total for both rebuilt front calipers and brackets. I don't however understand the F/R torque balance as the 11.63 rear rotor, caliper, and cobra cage system was used with: the 38mm 94-98 cobra calipers, the 99-04 40.5mm calipers, plus the 00 cobra R Brembo 4piston units?

When Ford changed to the "New Edge" body they made some changes to anti-dive built into the k-member. They also use a more aggressive ABS. As a result, they increased the size of the front caliper to account for the change. When these are put on a Fox chassis, no such anti-dive/ABS changes exist so the brake torque bias is now more to the front. Typically, this results in a front lock/no rear lock scenario because of the mismatch. The remedy is usually the need to run a more aggressive rear pad to compensate, or swap to the smaller front caliper.

Also Since I have the 40.5mm calipers in the mail what is the advantage of the 1"bore 93 cobra MC vs the 15-16" bore 94-95? My booster is original so it probably could be replaced not sure if there is a test to check its health?

. With the lager caliper, the smaller M/C may result in a long/soft pedal - very hard to modulate. with the 1" Cobra, the pedal will be shorter/firmer and easier to modulate. With that said, I originally kept my SVO 1-1/8" bore M/C when I went with the sn95 Cobra brakes. I couldn't lock either end of the car despite a similar the pedal feel to my old setup (SVO front calipers/SSBC rear disc conversion). So I swapped to the 93 Cobra 1" M/C. Imagine my disappointment when I got the same results - no lock on either end. Moreover, the pedal felt exactly the same which is contrary to all the research I'd conducted. Turns out that the front banjo bolt I used was too long. Bought a shorter one and at least I got the fronts to lock. My problem now appears to be the manual prop valve has failed or is the wrong ratio for my setup. Anyways, there is a separate thread on that issue.

As for the dust shields, yes I am working on a designing some air ducts to the rotors. I'm thinking the scoops can be in the outer most opening of the lower bumper. if they are painted black you might not even notice them.

If you plan to hang them under the front fascia, not only will they be noticeable, but may get hit when going up steep driveways. I've designed a removable air dam based upon a Ranger unit. The scoops are built into the air dam and the whole thing - hoses and all - detach when not on track.

I would be interested in your source for the slotted rotors?

http://www.rotorpros.net/index.htm

As for the rear brake lines, the pic below is the current set up on my 8.8....
So what would I need to make the cobra brakes work with this set up? A 87-93 hard line under the car, to what body-axle flex line, to sn95 hard lines out to the cobra flex lines for the calipers?

The MM rear kit can be used for the disc conversion. Should plug right into your existing lines. Check the install instructions on MM's site. As for the center line, on the 86 and later v8 cars the line is mounted above the axle center section to the body, and there is a mount that fastens the flex line to that section of the axle housing. This design was to move the brake lines away from the dual exhaust.

Spend some time looking over MM's instructions. Those may help with the little things that otherwise you would have to figure out yourself.

[cb84capri]

was just reading this thread over as i'm looking to upgrade to the 03-04 cobra setup on my car. i have a 73 ranchero 1" bore master cylinder on my car (raybestos mc36397). it connected right up to the stock 84 brake lines on mine with a little bending. it looks similar to the stock master, just a little bigger and heavier as it's made out of cast iron. i really like the way my current setup feels with the later fox 60mm calipers and turbo coupe rear disc brakes, gutted proportioning valve and wilwood adjustable proportioning valve. if i calculated it correctly, there is slightly less piston area with the twin 40.5mm 03-04 cobra calipers than my current ones. love the feel of my brake pedal right now, but i want to start hitting up some autocross and road courses with the car, and i'd like those bigger heat sinks up front.

cale

[cb84capri]

here's what it looks like installed and painted black:



cale

[qtrracer]

There is slightly less piston area when using the 40.5mm Cobra caliper as opposed to the stock 60mm single. But the brake torque is hugely different because you moved to a 13" rotor over the 11". It's brake torque we are talking about. For example, your current setup is roughly front biased 64.5%. With the larger cobra it's 71.2%. This is only correcting for the larger caliper and rotor. All other factors are held static. As a result, you will likely lock the fronts way before the rears get close. This will cause a loss of braking performance rather than an improvement. And your front brakes will get much hotter than necessary since they are doing so much more work.

[SchoolBoy]

I wasn't happy with the 40mm calipers that showed up so I sent them back and ordered the 38mm units instead.