Close



Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 31
  1. #1

    Default Fueling a 200ci I6 with original carb (81 mustang)

    Hey all, wonder if you can help me - hopefully I have this in the correct section, its fuel based question but its very much specific to this engine/carb setup i think.

    My 81 has the original 200ci inline six that was in it when it was imported from the USA in 1981, with the original carb, Holley 1946 model I believe.
    This is a model that would have had the mechanical fuel pump on the side of the engine (opposite side the inlet/exhaust) that pulled fuel from the tank up to the carb which seems to have a one way valve operated by the float.
    There is no intank pump, and the only other line that comes from the tank seems to be a vapour line that goes into a t-piece, joining vapour from the carburetor that then goes down to the charcoal canister.

    Now, before I bought the car somebody obviously had issues with the mechanical pump (parts are not as easy to find in this country!) and replaced it with a little universal electric pump which did the job ok for a year or so, unless it got really warm. To fix the heating issue i relocated it from the engine bay to the rear of the vehicle next to the tank and replaced it with a slightly more expensive universal pump. Unfortunately that one died, as did another Facet cube pump which according to the write ups are supposed to be pretty reliable. The cheap one that the previous owner had put on works still in this position but it leaks and doesn't hold good pressure. When i replace it with a new one the pressure is constant and it runs great for a few days then the pump dies.

    So I'm stuck trying to find a new universal 12v electric pump, but they all seem to show diagrams with a return line. The way I see it, when the carb bowl is full it shuts off the one way valve and the fuel becomes solid behind it, which could then kill the pump. But there is no return line fitted on this vehicle and nothing I can see on the carb that would allow me to fit one short of building a regulator system just before it and plumbing a line back to the tank along the whole underside of the car. It seems like the car has never had this and wasn't designed to have this in it (until the later EFI models I assume?).

    I'm sure someone else on here may have run their inline six 200s with the original carb but an electric pump - have you managed to find a pump that will survive dead-heading, or have a built in regulator of some sort? Or have you all fitted regulators at the carb and a return line? Or am I missing something and the carb I have does have a return line function (maybe using the vapor line that goes to the charcoal canister?)?

    Any help would be much appreciated, the car is basically off the road until I sort this! Shame it runs fantastically when it has a good fuel supply, just can't seem to find a reliable pump!

  2. #2
    Mike1157
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uncleterry View Post
    Hey all, wonder if you can help me - hopefully I have this in the correct section, its fuel based question but its very much specific to this engine/carb setup i think.

    My 81 has the original 200ci inline six that was in it when it was imported from the USA in 1981, with the original carb, Holley 1946 model I believe.
    This is a model that would have had the mechanical fuel pump on the side of the engine (opposite side the inlet/exhaust) that pulled fuel from the tank up to the carb which seems to have a one way valve operated by the float.
    There is no intank pump, and the only other line that comes from the tank seems to be a vapour line that goes into a t-piece, joining vapour from the carburetor that then goes down to the charcoal canister.

    Now, before I bought the car somebody obviously had issues with the mechanical pump (parts are not as easy to find in this country!) and replaced it with a little universal electric pump which did the job ok for a year or so, unless it got really warm. To fix the heating issue i relocated it from the engine bay to the rear of the vehicle next to the tank and replaced it with a slightly more expensive universal pump. Unfortunately that one died, as did another Facet cube pump which according to the write ups are supposed to be pretty reliable. The cheap one that the previous owner had put on works still in this position but it leaks and doesn't hold good pressure. When i replace it with a new one the pressure is constant and it runs great for a few days then the pump dies.

    So I'm stuck trying to find a new universal 12v electric pump, but they all seem to show diagrams with a return line. The way I see it, when the carb bowl is full it shuts off the one way valve and the fuel becomes solid behind it, which could then kill the pump. But there is no return line fitted on this vehicle and nothing I can see on the carb that would allow me to fit one short of building a regulator system just before it and plumbing a line back to the tank along the whole underside of the car. It seems like the car has never had this and wasn't designed to have this in it (until the later EFI models I assume?).

    I'm sure someone else on here may have run their inline six 200s with the original carb but an electric pump - have you managed to find a pump that will survive dead-heading, or have a built in regulator of some sort? Or have you all fitted regulators at the carb and a return line? Or am I missing something and the carb I have does have a return line function (maybe using the vapor line that goes to the charcoal canister?)?

    Any help would be much appreciated, the car is basically off the road until I sort this! Shame it runs fantastically when it has a good fuel supply, just can't seem to find a reliable pump!
    Any fuel pump rated for a stock, carbureted engine will be pressure regulated in the 5-7 psi range. You will not need a return line w/ any carb rated pump, unless you buy a product calibrated for a high performance application. Carter makes a "street pump" that fits that bill. Other brands like a Holley "Blue" will have a regulator as part of the package that will allow to to choke the pressure down to where you want it, and it still does not require a return line. Summit and jegs have a butt load of options for you you only need go to their respective websites.

  3. #3

    Default

    Thanks for your response. Has relieved my worry about adding a return line at least. Definitely don't need high performance either, 5-7psi is what I've been looking at (and the rating on the pumps I've bought so far).

    I can't understand why the pumps I fit (which are meant to be for carburetors) seem to work once and then stop working. They still make a noise, so the electrics on them is fine, but no fuel is making it to the engine bay, even when I syphon it right up to the pump.
    Unless I have a problem elsewhere like a collapsed fuel line between the pump and engine... i doubt this as the standard mustang ones are solid on the underbody and i've replaced the flexible ones in the bay for brand new thicker walled ones. Should probably pressure test it though to be on the safe side... on my to do list!

    Unfortunately being in the UK, we don't have summit or jegs here and shipping prices can be high. Our local motor stores don't tend to hold parts for carbed engines anymore but i'll look out for the ones you've mentioned.

    The Holley Blue looks quite large, not sure that type of pump will easilly fit upright in the panel between the tank and the rear axle?

    Cheers for your help. Still feels like a bit of a mystery why mine won't work though.

  4. #4
    FEP Super Member mustangxtreme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Snohomish, Wa
    Posts
    4,021

    Default

    Are all your rubber lines new? Is the gas tank vent clear? Are you filtering the fuel before the pump? Not in any particular order just some thoughts.
    Dave

    If common sense was common wouldn't it just be sense?

    1983 Capri L T top 5.0 efi aod
    1983 Capri RS Turbo
    1981 Black Magic 400 c6
    93 F-250 351 5sp 4x4

  5. #5
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dunedin 9011, New Zealand, South Pacific
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    Welcome. I'm busy working on a special electroincs project on my 7" screen computer in my 1981 JDM Mustang 3.3 C3 trans Hatch, so this is a bit of a muddle.

    The Holley 1946 doesn't have return line, so youre kinda stuck. It does have a very restrictive fuel filter which is great for filtering out dirt, but murder on a high delivery electric fuel pump. You have to down grade to a 100 micron in line filter.

    You do have many options. Running 12 v to a facet without a regulator or fuel return line is asking for trouble. Carter in the US uses Facets, they are excellent, but any high flow pump needs some kind of fuel bleed off. The Cortina/Capri/Sierra return line Weber 32/36 DGAV or Capri 3.0 38 DGAS carb is fine with a high volume electricpump, a fuel regulator,and an LPG vacuum fuel lockoff or an electric LPG start gasolie (petrol) prime switch.

    You can use the evaporative emission line as a return line and dump fuel into the tank using a 255 gph fuel pump and a Carter fuel regulator. Does10's on Fordsix performance does this, but the site is down. You have to run a proper fuel cutoff but the Carter 4309 fuel regulator can take the line pressure down to the required 4 to 5 psi. He covers the safety aspects, but there are some restrictins. The old CFI V8's ran a high pressure pump, but it can be safely stepped down before the carb with a return line and regulator.


    Use the captive import GM items such as the Japanese T car Gemini (Chevette which lookes like a rear drive Opel Kadett), the Isuzu Trooper/Isuzu Piazza or Honda Civic/Triumph Aclaim breakers yard items, and don't use 12 volts. The Rovers and Triumphs still Honda engined probably have it.

    Over in Aussie they have Holden Gemini/ Rodeo/Holden Jackaroo/Holden Piazza/Holden Shuttle and Rover Quntets.

    In the US, its Chevy Luv/Isuzu Trooper/Piazza and Civic.



    Read this http://jalopnik.com/5059863/junkyard...arbureted-cars

    " However, back in those days you could count on being able to find two vehicles with easy-access, reliable electric fuel pumps that would work just fine with your Q-jet or Solex or whatever: the Chevy Luv pickup truck and the mid-70s Honda Civic. The Luv- actually an Isuzu TF- had an easy-to-reach cylindrical pump located on the frame rail, while the Civic's was behind a panel under the rear seat. I preferred the Civic pump, even though it was slightly harder to extract from the donor vehicle, because it was easier to mount on a crude homemade bracket (see above) and attach under the hood of your Buick Apollo with a couple of sheetmetal screws. These days, sadly, you usually can't find either one of these vehicles in the self-service junkyards, mid-70s machinery now having mostly been crushed. I try to not to get burdened beneath a big load of old car parts, but I'm going to keep this Civic pump!"

    then this http://www.hotgemini.com/viewtopic.p...99c94f5624af96

    This is the Isuzu set up (Holden Rodeo) and its the best.

    Alternative is to use the Air Tex oil pressure lock off and an aftermarket low GPH electric pump.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPh2Na3vbGc

  6. #6
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dunedin 9011, New Zealand, South Pacific
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    http://www.fordsix.com/forum/viewtop...&view=previous
    http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/4341...fuel-pressure/
    http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...w-carbs-2.html

    The Mallory MAA-4309 3-12 PSI return style regulator. Its got 1 inlet and 3 outlet for a return and dual carb inputs, and it runs with any nasty NOT FOR CARB port injection EFI pump, you can bang down the line pressure to less than 4 psi with ease. Does10s used a Mallory 250 electric fuel pump. The return line allowed him to drop the psi down, and the old fuel tank breather in the behind number plate fuel filler allowed the fuel to return to the tank.

    https://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic....498792#p498792
    Quote Originally Posted by Does10s
    We used the 4309 regulator for a long time. It'll work just fine.
    Our first fuel pump was similar to the E8248.
    So you should be fine.

    Just make sure your fuel return line is the same size or at least very close to the same size as the feed side.
    You want the regulator to regulate the pressure...not the fuel line.
    Later,
    Will

  7. #7
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dunedin 9011, New Zealand, South Pacific
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    1981 was the cross over year to from the old 47 liter US 12.4 gallon tank to the later 56.8 (15 US gal) and 61 liter (16.1 US Gal ) items.

    You can use any electric pump CFI or EFI tank and its fittings. For 1981, they changed the fuel tank restraining straps, so you can probably pop in a later tank if you have acess to one.


    Tank changes, Mallory # 5250A "250" pumps and # 4309 regulators are overkill for your situation, but a Civic or Isuzu electric fuel pump and 9 volt supply with return line and oil pressure or vac cut out wiull allow your 1981 Mustsng to run fine.

    The Facet fuel pump can work well if you treat it right. The square one has insufficient flow at too high pressure, but in situations where the voltage is low and there is a return line to bleed off pressure, they are fine.

    There are two types

    http://forum.lotusregister.co.za/def...g=posts&t=1090

    Quote from muller on the .lotusregister.co.za

    Just to clarify, in our experience these are junk and its just a matter of time before they fail, the noname chines knock offs are even worse:


    these however are very good, if you can find them. I use one on and off in my race car and after 6 years its still going strong

  8. #8

    Default

    alot of those pumps you have to be careful where to put them as well, some are pull pumps and some are push, check to find out where they are supposed to be. You can burn one out if they are in the wrong spot.

  9. #9

    Default

    Thanks for all of the feedback guys.

    Firstly, the rubber lines in the engine bay are all new, but the ones from the tank down to the pump (as i said, now located behind the rear axle) are original because I havn't dropped the tank yet. Next time I have time to get under the car and its not raining (v wet here at the moment!) I plan to pressure test all the lines. My dad has some very hi-tech kit he used to build to calibrate pressure systems which is way overkill but will tell me if the lines to the engine hold pressure (thinking of testing up to around 7psi?) and that the breather line is clear.

    Don't know if the gas tank lid / fuel flap still vents fine. Need to purchase a new one, but if the vent hose works fine it shouldnt be an issue right? Just need to check all the hose pressures.

    I have removed the filter that came attached to the carb (it wasn't the original one anyway) as the thread had been mashed on the carb on the inlet. Replaced that and put an inline filter a bit before it in the engine bay, and another one down the back before the pump. Both are 40 micron, clear glass filters so I can see if there is fuel going through them or not. They've become part of the test procedure now!

    xctasy, thanks for your advice, all very useful! A lot of the cars you mention aren't very popular in europe. Its a good idea pulling a pump from a model which was carbed with electric fuel pump but I can't think of many off the top of my head and most nearly all get replaced with aftermarket universal ones when they die.

    I think your comments on the facet pumps are most useful. I have been using the cube type ones among other models, and I agree they do not seem reliable. I have seen the cylinder type ones and do know of a supplier. I think this may be the best option, providing I can fit it in the same area. If so, it will stay just behind the rear axle, about level with the fuel tank so should be fine to pump forward from there.

    xctasy, that cylindrical facet pump you say you have had on your car for 6 years - is it still dead head? still works fine in the application i am putting it? doesn't need a return line? Can't find much in the way of info on it online so if it works on yours in a similar fashion I will know for sure and buy one later this week!

    Thanks for your help guys!

  10. #10
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dunedin 9011, New Zealand, South Pacific
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uncleterry View Post
    ......
    xctasy, that cylindrical facet pump you say you have had on your car for 6 years - is it still dead head? still works fine in the application i am putting it? doesn't need a return line? Can't find much in the way of info on it online so if it works on yours in a similar fashion I will know for sure and buy one later this week!

    Thanks for your help guys!

    That was a quote from muller, not myself.


    The Facet when run with 8 to 10 volts, and kept in a low head/pressure situation, will work fine. Its called bleedback, and you can do it by bying a little plastic filter that was used in AMCs and Jeeps.

    The bleedback systems used in Colt Sigmas and Jeeps with carby engines reduce fuel pressure by letting the fuel go back to the tank unless it is being used...the post 1972 Cortina/Capri/Sierra system is the same. On the DGAV 32/36, a second outlet from the float blead fuel back via a 0.6 mm hole as the mechanical fuel pump could make 5 psi on a good day, but Webers only liked 3 psi, so bleed back 'bled' off fuel pressure. Very good system.



    Duralast makes them today. http://www.autozone.com/1/categories...r-fuel-filters



    They look like this ZO6 Corvette fuel tank item, but the Mitsubishi ones were plastic, and AMC ones were steel One line goes back to the tank to eliminate vapour lock.





    http://www.z06vette.com/forums/f5/n-...ailing-122958/

  11. #11

    Default

    Thanks for the continued support! I have ordered one of those facet pumps now, the red top cylindrical one.
    I realized you were quoting someone when I read back, apologies!

    That sort of filter looks like the best way of managing a return line to relieve pressure on the carb i'm using. I'd guess I can just run the fuel tank vapour line straight onto that third pipe and it will still vent the tank fine whilst allowing a bit of return?
    Do you I think I'd also need a new fuel filler flap to ensure that is venting fine as well... I fear mine is a bit old. Wouldn't want to risk this getting blocked and then not allowing any air displacement into the tank.

    However I can't see any filters like that with the three tubes on for any sites that will ship to the UK... Autozone are US shipping only. Nothing on amazon or ebay (even US ebay from my searches). Tried searching for corvette filters too but still not UK shop hits.

    Also, is this better mounted as close to the carb as possible? Or back down by the pump but just after it?

    If I can't find one, do you think I should be worried that pressure build up will kill that red top cylindrical Facet pump by running my system as it is with no pressure relief?

  12. #12
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dunedin 9011, New Zealand, South Pacific
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    I see a lot of really brain dead responses to dead end fuel pressure regulation. The Holden Dealer Team HDT Commodores and some Police versions of the GM Holden 253 and 308's, and most of the Panther rear drive Fords with trip minder, had a Vapour return junction line which is the same as the 1978-1985 Ford Granada 2.8 Injections. It technically operates as a fuel measurement junction for early fuel injection or Trip minder systems, but it also allowed fuel pressure to be blead off to a vapour line on thise cars. They are expensive new, but they work, and if you can find one, they are used the word over . The 168 to 300 hp Brock Commodores ran them as an "anti vaporisation kit". The issues of fuel vapourisation were sorted out in the early 1980's by Ford and GM worldwide wth this Fuel Flow Meter/Separator/Reg.Valve sensor. Ford of Europe used it in the #6097149 and 6161181 Fuel Flow Meter Assembly on the Sieera P100 and the same part is used on the 2.8 Injection Capris, XR4is and Granada.

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...M-Data-produce


    Return lines 9 times out of 10 fix fuel pressure related reliabilty problems by taking the load off the fuel pump, and needle and seat at the carb.


    You fit a return line it the way the Jeep, Honda, Ford or Isuzu carb engines had there's.


    You can mabee copy the Europena Ford 2.8 Injection or P100 system and fit it like Holden Australia did in the 3.3 Holden Commodre L6
    http://eucatparts.com/?action=cat_fo...&s_id_model=73



    When you add an electric pump at the tank, you still nead the fuel pressure regulator or return line at the carb end. If its an emissions engine with evaporative haydrocarbon cansiter, you need to copy the Jeep system or change the gas cap to one that will safely ventilate. Does10's on his killer 450 hp 250 turbo Falcon had some safety issues with returning fuel to the fuel filler neck, and had to increase the entry of the pipe to the inside of the fuel tank.

    http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/h...27/index2.html
    http://www.4wdmechanix.com/Rebuildin...arburetor.html
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...gulator.62142/

    All US design Holleys and earlier Holley/Weber and Weber DG series workalike carbs have the worst needle and seat designs around, and if your stuck with using a higher flow than standard Ford pump, or an elecvtric pump, you need to consider

    1) a Fuel Pressure Regulator (FPR) with or without a return line, or

    2) a dual outlet filter with a return line.


    Mount pressure regullator or return lines at the carb.

    The folowing enginers knew some thing.
    AMC,
    Isuzu,
    Honda, and
    Ford of Europe,
    Ford of Australia, and,
    Ford of Dearborn (with the 1983-1985 4-bbl 4180C Holley in the Mustang and all the 4-BBL V8 4180 C versions of the 302/351/370/460 cubic inch F700 and F Sieries truck).

    The Aussie Weber 2-bbl Falcon ran a US Ford Carter return line style mechanical fuel pump with a vapour line from 1982 to 1992.

    Ford of Dearborn knew something about the psychotic, irrational behaviour of fuel under too much pressure with insufficient flow, and the Fox Mustang system is a landmark of Ford Detriot getting a Holley system to work properly.


    If you are using the dual outlet filter you don't need a Fuel Pressure Regulator (FPR). By all means, go ahead, follow Mike 1157, buy a Holley Holley # 12-804. Mount it at the carb.

    The AMC Jeep filter used on 258 I6's is actually a FPR. If you were to look into the return nipple you would see a metered hole. Jeeps used proprietry FoMoCo or Mopar fuel systems, and the return line dual oulet fuel filter was the best system ever to solve problems with stock Motorcraft or Carter carb float level problems, and since the Holley and Weber are worse, they work even better on those carbs..

  13. #13

    Default

    something else to consider, the 84 thunderbird with the 3.8 V6 and CFI used a low pressure in tank pump, that puts out enough volume to work with a carb. the nice thing is that the fuel sending unit should swap to the mustang fuel tank as both cars are fox body cars. the tbird did use a larger fuel tank though, but the sending unit from the tbird does have provision for a return line. just a thought at something you can try.
    64 falcon
    66 mustang
    05 grand marquis

    dont just believe in miracles, rely on them!

    fordsix.com admin

  14. #14
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dunedin 9011, New Zealand, South Pacific
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    uncleterry.

    Between rbohm's post and this one, you have your answer. A return line is what I recomend.

    The FSP Does10s method of fuel line return is what works in your situation.


    http://forum.turboford.org/cgi-bin/u...2;t=046010;p=0


    A little CommonWealth Help to ya from 2Boosted in Dresden, Ontario, Canada
    quote:Originally posted by Neal:

    Has anyone run an external inline pump instead of changing the tank out? This is the route i plan to go.

    2Boosted replied "I used an inline fuel pump out of an F-150 (not sure of the year) for the pressure line and ran the return line back on the passenger side and tapped it into the filler neck and sealed it off with a little bit of epoxy. Its lasted 12 years other than had to fix the epoxy seal a couple of times for different reasons

    Not sure what power you are looking for, but my engine has never ran outta fuel!".


    Sorry its taken so long, but the four step solution is:

    Run
    1.the cylindrical Facet in line at back
    2 .with an oil pressure relayed 8 to 9 volts,
    3. then to a Holley FPR set at 3.5 psi at the front by the carb,
    4. and then the retun line via US passenger side Does10s/2Boosted style to the fuel filler.

    Then you'll have enough fuel flow flow, low pressure, a return line, and you wont kill the electric fuel pump or ruin the needle and seat valve.


    Solved. Sorry it took so long, but return line systems are easier, cheaper, and won't give you any of the hassles a dead end restricted system will. Dead end restrictions dont work with electric performance fuel pumps, and a lot more of us are using them.


    One last point. An EECIV style fuel pump cut out is advisable. Oil pressure in a crash can stay up for 10 to 20 secons, and thats heaps of fuel in an accident. I've used the Impco VFF30 fel lockoff before, it will turn off fuel the instant the engine cuts out.

  15. #15

    Default

    Thanks for all the continued support, definitely helpful.

    I spent a long time on the car yesterday - first i tested all of the hoses which are all fine. fuel line from the front to the pump holds 7psi, and the vapour breather line does the same when blocked at both ends. I then tested out towards the charcoal canister which seemed free flowing and back towards the tank from the vapour line (at its first joint after coming out the tank) and that seemed to be smooth flowing back into the tank so I can safely assume there are neither any blockages or leaks anywhere.

    I then fitted the Facet red top cylindrical (out back by the tank just rear of the rear axle), ran a brand new earth wire back to the battery as well as grounding it to the body as I had done with the previous pump in that area. I tested it quickly (i have a seperate fuel pump switch in the car) and it pumped fuel really well into the engine bay. I couldn't start the car though as my starter solenoid died... doesn't matter though as I wouldn't want to put too much pressure on it without having fitted the regulator you've advised.

    On that note, searching through last night the only holley fuel regulator that comes up on uk ebay is this one
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Holley-Fue...item3f3f962b95
    which says "Regulator Style:Non-return" but then does have a thread size listed for both the input, output and a return line. Just the advert has confused me... is this the part I should be looking for?

    And although I now know my vapour line would be up to the job, I do not know if the gas cap vents properly and again I can't seem to find any on UK websites (i've yet to call my local american parts distrubutor which i will do later in the week anyway to order a new starter solenoid after some other checks). So I think it may be best to buy a long fuel hose and cable tie that from the engine bay to the back of the car along to the vapour line hose and use that as a return line so I keep the vapour line seperate. Not sure where I'd plumb it into the tank though - whilst I understand the story about epoxying it into the fuel neck it doesn't sound like a robust solution to me :/ maybe if i can get a spare fuel neck though, at least then I can return it if it goes wrong!

    Cheers for the help guys.

  16. #16
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dunedin 9011, New Zealand, South Pacific
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    The gas cap won't vapour lock if its got a regulator, so you'll be alright.

    For a few pounds, one of these will ensure the Facet doesn't pump fuel in an accident situation.

    http://forums.mustangandfords.com/mu...nertia-switch/

    Remember less than 12 voolts to drive the Facet fuel pump.

    And maybee a relay to reduce the peak voltage to the starter soleniod too.


    The Holley Fuel pressure regulator (FPR) is called the Holley #12-804, but there is an insert which allows its pressure cut off to be changed from a dead head system to a return line system. The link is the right one.


    All because you didn't replace the stock fuel pump with a replacment.


    This is the rerenial electirc fuel pump verses mechanical tlak for carbs which don't like 7 psi of pressure.


    What you'll end up with is the 1978-1982 Isuzu /Holden Gemini electric pump system, same as the Chevy Luv.

    This set up existed becasue of GM' worry about avoiding Pinto style fuel line and rear fuel tank related fires in the case of a rear end shunt, and doing everything will result in a good out come. It copies those systems.

    Read page 1 and 2 of http://www.ozgemini.com/forums/tech/...17904&start=15

  17. #17

    Default

    Fantastic.

    Yeah I'm still trying to source a brand new inertia switch, doesn't matter too much at the moment as the car isn't on the road. Once the fuel system is all up and running I can add the switch before driving it on the road, shouldn't be a problem. Again, struggling to find a UK supplier of them though - at the moment I'm left with buying second hand ones from old small Fords which might be the only option for now.

    I will order the Holley 12-804 and the correct fittings for my system, set it to around 3psi then and let you know how it goes cheers!

    I know I know, manual pump would have probably been easier. If I get brand new OE manual pump in the future I know I can fit it back into this system without a problem though. Just have to climb back under the car and take the pump out, return the vapour line to how it is now and it would work.

  18. #18

    Default

    So the Holley 12-804 arrived today, it doesn't have a return on it - xsctasy what is the insert you mention that allows the "pressure cut off to be changed from a dead head system to a return line system"?

    Mine came with the regulator, a bracket and some screws. I already have some hose connectors which will fit into it but nothing like this was supplied.

    The 12-804 has only an In, and two Outs - for dual carbs, or block for single carb... so it says in the manual. Also says, if you want to use a bypass you need to use 12-803BP model which is 4-7psi (12-804 is 1-4psi).

    So now I either send this one back and search for a different model (cannot find this supposed bypass model anywhere on UK sites at the moment) or chuck the 12-804 inline and ignore the bypass/return, presumably risking killing this fuel pump with too much backpressure...

  19. #19
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dunedin 9011, New Zealand, South Pacific
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    There are several ways to do it with the 804.




    There are red and plain replacement springs for the factory 804 series regulator.

    Holley gives them another name, 807 suffix, with a lower limit sprring.


    In a similar way, the twin fuel entry can be bleed off.


    You can use Ray Withs method for a start.

    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...oblems.388108/


    " Several ways to do it-One is to drill and tap the 3/8 elbow with a 1/8 pipe thread or what ever fitting you have coming out of your regulator to the carb.


    This is how I do it and then there are several holley fuel logs that have the same 1/8 plug so a gauge can be added. Another way is buy a union with the hole already in it from any speed shop with AN fittings and simply screw a 3/8 pipe in the regulator-then put the uninion on then your elbo or what ever fitting you have going to the carb. All this does is stabalize the regulator to maintain a steady set pressure.


    "

  20. #20

    Default

    That makes sense.

    Well I have ordered the bypass one, found a US stockist who would ship to the UK cheap.
    Once delivered I will have;
    12-804 (1-4psi - twin carb outlet)
    12-803BP (4-7psi - single carb outlet with bypass outlet).
    And I'm aiming for 3.5 psi with a bypass back to the tank right?

    Are you saying I could simply swap the spring from the 804 into the 803BP, to make the 803BP 1-4psi?

    Or going by that link and what RayWith is saying there, should I stick with the 804, knowing its the correct psi range and then on the spare outlet port add a reducer that blocks most of the flow off down to 1/8" and run this to my vapour line. This will relieve the pressure just enough going by the discussion on that forum. This sounds like the best and easiest option actually, as long as I can find (or get a friend with a lathe to make me up...) a reducer to go in that spare outlet. This may be a done deal at last!

  21. #21
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dunedin 9011, New Zealand, South Pacific
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uncleterry
    ...... should I stick with the 804, knowing its the correct psi range and then on the spare outlet port add a reducer that blocks most of the flow off down to 1/8" and run this to my vapour line. This will relieve the pressure just enough going by the discussion on that forum. This sounds like the best and easiest option actually, as long as I can find (or get a friend with a lathe to make me up...) a reducer to go in that spare outlet. This may be a done deal at last!

    Yes, that's the best option.




    The casting is the same, but the difference is the way the housings are machined, the spring plunger and the way its plumbed.




    ^ 12 803 Dead Head



    ^ 12 803BP



    ^ 12-804 (1-4psi - twin carb outlet)


    Return lines are set up witout the 12 804 FPR. On its own it won't make a return line any easier.

    The four Options you have open to you are:

    Option 1. the Ray With option of driiling a large 3/8" line with a small 1/8 " restriction hole for a "y-ed off" return line. The return line filters are like this, a 3/8 inlet and outlet and a 5/16 return.

    NB// Note Well Dual dual float bowl item doesn't exist for a 1-bbl Holley 1946. So you cant use option One B in the schematics above. (There are 1983-1995 Ford Fox /Panther/Truck 302/351/370/460 [5.0/5.8/6.7/7.8 liter] return lines but they need 4-bbl dual feed carb bowels).

    Option 2. the Ray With Tee a return line into the back of the optional fuel pressure gauge like this 12 804 item




    Option 3 the Ray With Holley fuel log which is a standard 4150/4160/4500 Holley 4-bbl fuel log wit a fuel prssure gage line used as a return line instead of a second carb dual feed.



    Option 4. The 1963-1989 AMC items I've talked about, but it is expanded if you can probably get others like the Big Block Pontiac or Chevy items for A/C cars in the late 60's and early 70's. The later 79-89 Mopar 318/360 for some years had them too.

    See seven listings for factory Detriot return line filters
    http://www.fleetfilter.com/filter/wi...ers/33040.html
    http://www.fleetfilter.com/filter/wi...ers/33041.html
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...cation.726747/
    http://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/Par...spx?Part=33054

    Duralast FF3420 (or Delco GF423 or Motorcraft FG13)
    Napa part # 3040 and # 3041 (or Wix 33040 and 33041)
    AC# GF99 and AC# GF432
    and Wix 33054


    Carbed Chevy S10's had a certian type too, but Idon't have a part number for it.

  22. #22
    FEP Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    133

    Default

    Here's my Mallory regulator.

    Haven't yet decided how to plumb the return line into the tank.
    Last edited by Monty78; 12-07-2014 at 01:10 AM.

  23. #23
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dunedin 9011, New Zealand, South Pacific
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Monty78 View Post
    Here's my Mallory regulator.

    Haven't yet decided how to plumb the return line into the tank.

    Mallory MAA-43093-12PSI return style regulator.

    Snap!





    Regulators and return lines exist because electric fuel pumps and below 3 psi carb line pressures don't mix. You destroy the fuel pump, and don't get thereliable fuel delivery. When a regulator is put on without a return line, the fuel pressure and flow are not stable. You can say things like Holleys like 7 psi at the fuel feeds, but unless its needed, the lowest pressure to the carb to sustain a proper , stable float level gets good results.

    As was stated by 10 second Falcon i6 turbo racer Does10s on FSP in the early posts. .

    On a carb instillation, you need a return line to lower the pressure, not regulate the flow. If you have an EFI style Mallory 250 fuel pump, you'd run a fuel return as big as your fuel supply line to your carb. If its less than the gallons per hour specs on a Mallory 250, you'd then look at the a line smaller, the same as the vapour line from the tank. It would have to be steel or rated rubber, and deposit fuel below the fuel filler, preferably the way it does on a factory instillation.


    In a full accelleration launch, return line fuel has to go into the tank, and in an accident, there should be a inertial cut out, and an oil pressure cut out to any electric pump.

  24. #24
    FEP Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    133

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post

    On a carb instillation, you need a return line to lower the pressure, not regulate the flow.
    Absolutely the reason I am doing this.
    As you well know the heat soak issues associated with the log, especially after you shut the engine off and it starts boiling out gas wherever it can. I have no need for an electric pump at the moment.

    I have a Cummins turbo 6 too, and apparently 70% of the fuel that gets pumped out is returned.
    Well until you step on that is...
    Last edited by Monty78; 12-07-2014 at 11:14 AM.

  25. #25
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dunedin 9011, New Zealand, South Pacific
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    As posted elseware, my 81 has a leaking D6DE 6749 AB fuel pump, and as I'm down in New Zealand Ican't quickly get a US$20 replacement item.

    I've added an Austrailian FPM-000A pre 1982 Bendix made Carter A31223 non bleedback pump off my 250 X-flow to the related US 200 i6.



    The 82 Alloy Head Cross Flow Falcons, Fairmonts and Fairlanes had 2-bbl Weber ( a Fait 131 style 34ADM) And a return line variant of the fuel pump above, similar to the US 4-BBL 4180C return line fuel pump in 5.0/5.8/370/460 engines



Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •