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  1. #26
    FEP Member Stormin' Norman's Avatar
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    It just so happens that I have the same job to do on mine, in the next few days, and I do have a donor part, but I'll patch it. I'll post with progress picks.

    My plan is to use my 2" X 2" tubing, cut open on the top side (channel-like) and weld it in. The donor part could be usable, but I'd be doing again in a few years. We're driving to Mexico to get another Fox wagon, so I'll score some nice clean subframes and do this car properly and have some spares.
    1979 Ford Fairmont 4-Eyed Squire (Mexican-Built) 3.3 I6 (200 CID) 4-Speed SROD Trans, Tri-Power

  2. #27
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84StangSVT View Post
    I was a bit baffled when they told me that as these shops are pretty much the "GO TO" body/collision shops here that have taken in cars that almost looked like crumpled up aluminum foil and came out straighter than an arrow. They have some high tech equipment to ensure the car is super straight and maybe that is why they didn't really want a rolling shell....or possibly like 85GT-79FJ40 said, they just really don't want the work so they are giving me a line and I need to take Trey's advice and find different shops.

    OR....I guess I could just quit being a wimp and get some proper gauge metal and get a little refresher welding practice in and do it myself......I just figured it might be quicker and easier to farm this part of the work out, but that avenue is not looking really good right now.
    As a former restoration shop owner, I will say that your average collision repair shops are not interested in this type of work. The reason being that it takes too long and doesn't pay that well for their business model. Your rolling shell is a pain for them to deal with because it has to be pushed in and out and around the shop, where most other vehicles will move under their own power. Your frame rail repair will take up valuable shop space that otherwise will most likely make more money doing normal collision repair that they specialize in.

    If you are willing and able to pay to have this work done, you want to find a restoration or custom shop that doesn't do insurance collision work as their main business. When I had my shop, I didn't do any insurance work because I was not setup for it and wasn't willing to "kiss the butt" of the insurance companies for 6 months to 1 year doing their low paying "crap" work just to get on their good sides. After you get in the insurance companies "good graces" then they will send you the work that you actually make decent money on, but again you have to deal with their paperwork and waiting to get paid. But I digress . . .

    A restoration/custom shop will have the tools, equipment, and the skills needed to do the repairs you want and are willing to do that type of work. But it won't be cheap either. As with everything you get what you pay for and depending on your local shop rate you are probably looking at anywhere between $50 and $100 per hour shop rate plus materials, supplies, etc. Depending on how you replace the frame rail with a new or used part, the time will be anywhere from 10 to 30 hours just as a guess. So be prepared for that, but get an estimate up front and in writing. Just understand too that an estimate is that . . . just an estimate. If they cut into your frame rail and find more damage, rust, or additional work, the cost will go up. I was always honest and upfront with my customers and always showed them the reason for additional work and got approval before moving forward.

    Good Luck!

    Trey
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  3. #28
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormin' Norman View Post
    It just so happens that I have the same job to do on mine, in the next few days, and I do have a donor part, but I'll patch it. I'll post with progress picks.

    My plan is to use my 2" X 2" tubing, cut open on the top side (channel-like) and weld it in. The donor part could be usable, but I'd be doing again in a few years. We're driving to Mexico to get another Fox wagon, so I'll score some nice clean subframes and do this car properly and have some spares.
    Keep in mind that adding 2X2 tubing to the frame rail changes the crash characteristics of the vehicle and could cause bodily injury in an accident. If the 2x2 is only added on one side that can also cause additional issues in an accident. I am not saying you can't or shouldn't do it as that is your choice, just consider that before moving ahead with it. If you have the correct donor parts, then IMHO I would replace the frame rails just as they were done from Ford without any additional 2x2 or other reinforcement.

    Here are some choices for replacement parts if you don't want to deal with cutting them off a donor car. http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/...979-93-Mustang

    Good Luck!

    Trey
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  4. #29
    FEP Member Stormin' Norman's Avatar
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    Point well taken. I'll have a better look at the donor part and see what can be done with it. Thanks.
    1979 Ford Fairmont 4-Eyed Squire (Mexican-Built) 3.3 I6 (200 CID) 4-Speed SROD Trans, Tri-Power

  5. #30
    FEP Super Member 84StangSVT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wraithracing View Post
    As a former restoration shop owner, I will say that your average collision repair shops are not interested in this type of work. The reason being that it takes too long and doesn't pay that well for their business model. Your rolling shell is a pain for them to deal with because it has to be pushed in and out and around the shop, where most other vehicles will move under their own power. Your frame rail repair will take up valuable shop space that otherwise will most likely make more money doing normal collision repair that they specialize in.

    If you are willing and able to pay to have this work done, you want to find a restoration or custom shop that doesn't do insurance collision work as their main business. When I had my shop, I didn't do any insurance work because I was not setup for it and wasn't willing to "kiss the butt" of the insurance companies for 6 months to 1 year doing their low paying "crap" work just to get on their good sides. After you get in the insurance companies "good graces" then they will send you the work that you actually make decent money on, but again you have to deal with their paperwork and waiting to get paid. But I digress . . .

    A restoration/custom shop will have the tools, equipment, and the skills needed to do the repairs you want and are willing to do that type of work. But it won't be cheap either. As with everything you get what you pay for and depending on your local shop rate you are probably looking at anywhere between $50 and $100 per hour shop rate plus materials, supplies, etc. Depending on how you replace the frame rail with a new or used part, the time will be anywhere from 10 to 30 hours just as a guess. So be prepared for that, but get an estimate up front and in writing. Just understand too that an estimate is that . . . just an estimate. If they cut into your frame rail and find more damage, rust, or additional work, the cost will go up. I was always honest and upfront with my customers and always showed them the reason for additional work and got approval before moving forward.

    Good Luck!

    Trey
    Thanks again Trey! I did talk to a couple other shops yesterday afternoon as suggested and they would be interested in the work as you said because they are not insurance paid companies. I will say you were pretty spot on with your numbers as both of them were looking at about 15 hours of work pending the car came to them as a rolling shell. With that being said, 15 hours @ $95/hr = $1425 + expendables and parts which is money I could use to do other things that I need to do to the car.

    I know I'm capable of performing this repair, it just seemed that maybe I would have been less nervous to have someone else do it as it is an avenue I have never been down by myself plus I'm going to have to use equipment that is fairly new to me. I'm going to use the frame rail kits from LMR as there is no point in fabricating replacement parts when there are replacement parts available, especially if it is going to change the crash characteristics of the car.

    Out of curiosity or maybe ignorance, what type/size of metal should I start practicing on? I really need to spend some time with the welder before I ever strike an arc on the car.
    Brock
    1984 Mustang LX Convertible 3.8L V-6/Auto (SOLD)
    1984 Mustang GT Hatchback 5.0 V-8/5 Speed

    I'm an FEP Supporter and proud of it. Are you?

  6. #31
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84StangSVT View Post
    Thanks again Trey! I did talk to a couple other shops yesterday afternoon as suggested and they would be interested in the work as you said because they are not insurance paid companies. I will say you were pretty spot on with your numbers as both of them were looking at about 15 hours of work pending the car came to them as a rolling shell. With that being said, 15 hours @ $95/hr = $1425 + expendables and parts which is money I could use to do other things that I need to do to the car.

    I know I'm capable of performing this repair, it just seemed that maybe I would have been less nervous to have someone else do it as it is an avenue I have never been down by myself plus I'm going to have to use equipment that is fairly new to me. I'm going to use the frame rail kits from LMR as there is no point in fabricating replacement parts when there are replacement parts available, especially if it is going to change the crash characteristics of the car.

    Out of curiosity or maybe ignorance, what type/size of metal should I start practicing on? I really need to spend some time with the welder before I ever strike an arc on the car.
    Glad to hear you were able to find some other shop that might work out. Also glad my estimating numbers are still reasonably tuned!

    I am sure this is something you can do if you take your time, take plenty of measurements, always remember to measure twice and cut once, and take plenty of pictures to help you remember how things came apart and go back together.

    As for welding, I would recommend getting some basic knowledge on welding and getting good penetration, good wire speed, etc. before jumping off into replacing the frame rails. You can start working on metal that is similar in thickness to your frame rail so that you will have the best luck in welding those pieces in correctly. I would guess the frame rails are going to be around 12 gauge metal, but I would recommend you verify what you get them to be sure. You will want to also practice on thinner metal too, so that you can learn and understand how to make adjustments to the machine to ensure proper weld penetration. Also keep in mind that proper weld penetration is the most important thing in welding two pieces of metal together. Yes, nice clean welds are what we all want and should try for, but if you don't have proper weld penetration then it doesn't matter how pretty the welds are.

    I would also recommend checking out You Tube, Eastwood, etc. for videos and DVDs on welding to help you learn and understand the process and what the different adjustments do for you and to the weld.

    Good Luck!

    Trey
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  7. #32

    Default

    sorry to see that , after saw this I ran into my mustang and craw under check both side, driver side look pefect, passenger side right under the battery trace just a tiny rust flake , bang it with the screw drive and its solid, gonna order me some Por-15 and doing 2 coat of that on both side just to prevention .

    one suggest , after repair, mabe a coat or 2 of Por-15 just for rust prevention, or any brand that you trust, not a bad idea thought. Doing both side or any where that you think rust can get thru. or touch up small rust spot.... Its might be over kill for " alway garage, and no winter driving " but give you an peice of mind...

    I just order an starter kit $20 from eastwood ( order from eastwood on ebay, and get free shipping ), its plenty of what I am planing to do.

    http://www.eastwood.com/por-15-super-starter-kit.html
    Always Stay Humble. -Sinister-

  8. #33
    FEP Senior Member flyin5-o's Avatar
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    Basic step by step in this thread.
    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...=lack+progress

  9. #34
    FEP Super Member 84StangSVT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyin5-o View Post
    Thanks for the link! There is definitely some good info in there.
    Brock
    1984 Mustang LX Convertible 3.8L V-6/Auto (SOLD)
    1984 Mustang GT Hatchback 5.0 V-8/5 Speed

    I'm an FEP Supporter and proud of it. Are you?

  10. #35

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    Hey some great info here. As for Por15 I used it on my mustang and firebird Restoration and works well , only if you treat both side's of the metal.

  11. #36
    FEP Member kingsnake's Avatar
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    Default Frame Rails

    Lots of good advice here. I will just throw in a little more from my been there done that experience.
    I actually made my own frame rail and removed the rail reinforcements from the inside of the rails and welded them into the new rails.
    Just about the time I finished, NPD came out with a NOS part that includes the rail, tower and both aprons as one piece for $199.00
    I would highly recomend this as it will save you both time and money as well as rendering a supperior repair.
    Here is the NPD link.

    https://www.npdlink.com/store/catalo...il-6271-1.html

  12. #37
    FEP Member kingsnake's Avatar
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    Default Frame Rail Repair Pics

    A few pics of my frame rail repair.
    I hope they help.

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  13. #38
    FEP Super Member PaceFever79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingsnake View Post
    Lots of good advice here. I will just throw in a little more from my been there done that experience.
    I actually made my own frame rail and removed the rail reinforcements from the inside of the rails and welded them into the new rails.
    Just about the time I finished, NPD came out with a NOS part that includes the rail, tower and both aprons as one piece for $199.00
    I would highly recomend this as it will save you both time and money as well as rendering a supperior repair.
    Here is the NPD link.

    https://www.npdlink.com/store/catalo...il-6271-1.html
    I think that part is only available for the driver's side?

  14. #39
    FEP Super Member mustangxtreme's Avatar
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    Kingsnake, nice job on your repairs.
    Dave

    If common sense was common wouldn't it just be sense?

    1983 Capri L T top 5.0 efi aod
    1983 Capri RS Turbo
    1981 Black Magic 400 c6
    93 F-250 351 5sp 4x4

  15. #40
    FEP Member kingsnake's Avatar
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    It's true PaceFever, unfortunately only the left side is available as an assembled part.
    I mentioned it because both rails are often done at the same time, and I sure wish it had been available when I replaced my rails.
    Nice looking pace care by the way.

  16. #41
    FEP Super Member PaceFever79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingsnake View Post
    It's true PaceFever, unfortunately only the left side is available as an assembled part.
    I mentioned it because both rails are often done at the same time, and I sure wish it had been available when I replaced my rails.
    Nice looking pace care by the way.
    Thanks!

    You did a nice job on your fabrication work.

    Did you mig or tig your welds?

  17. #42

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    I note alot on fox, why passenger side alway rot/rust more then driver side ?
    Always Stay Humble. -Sinister-

  18. #43
    FEP Super Member PaceFever79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinister View Post
    I note alot on fox, why passenger side alway rot/rust more then driver side ?
    I would say because the old style batteries leaked acid as they aged, and that acid would run down into the hollow boxed frame rail and cause the passenger frame rail to rust from the inside out.

  19. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaceFever79 View Post
    I would say because the old style batteries leaked acid as they aged, and that acid would run down into the hollow boxed frame rail and cause the passenger frame rail to rust from the inside out.
    I though about that also,to kinda prevent this, I install a box type, that have sealed at the bottom, if my battery leak, it wont leak out any where.
    Always Stay Humble. -Sinister-

  20. #45
    FEP Super Member 84StangSVT's Avatar
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    Thanks for all of the good pictures guys, it is much appreciated! I do have a few more shots of the area now that I have the front end off and I don't think its going to be that bad of a job as it appears most of the rot is contained to that one area and hasn't spread into the strut boxes or down towards the firewall. I did notice a spot on the drivers side frame rail that I will have to investigate tonight when I get home as I may or may not have an issue developing on that side also.

    Pass Side







    Driver's side, spot to right of horn looks like it could become a problem, or I'm just paranoid right now.

    Brock
    1984 Mustang LX Convertible 3.8L V-6/Auto (SOLD)
    1984 Mustang GT Hatchback 5.0 V-8/5 Speed

    I'm an FEP Supporter and proud of it. Are you?

  21. #46
    FEP Power Member plumkrazy's Avatar
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    the other reason passanger side could be rusting is A/C dripping on and not drying.

    You have gone this far you better dig in to the drivers side and be done with it.
    1 of 3 1985 Silver Grand Prix Capr's
    My first New car and still own 1986 Capri

  22. #47

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    Buy you some POR-15 , or Lizard Skin which ever you preferd, I preferd POR-15 , is rust preventive, put in 2 coat of it and you will never worried about rust ever again. put it when you have a chance, dont leave it just bare metal, put some rust protection on it.

    since you have your side panel off, I would put 2 coat of POR-15 there too. Then I think because you live up north, I would do my whole car, under the car, frame, side panel, with it. floor boar.... its a very hard coat when its done.
    Always Stay Humble. -Sinister-

  23. #48
    FEP Member Stormin' Norman's Avatar
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    Default Finally got started on my strut towers

    Both sides look alike:

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    These two are from the Donor Car (1978 Zephyr)
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    I'm using the rear frame channels from the rear of the donor car to make new rail side panels. Same steel thickness.

    I used both my 4.5" and 5" grinders to cut those out of the Zephyr rails, and figured I should get an air-powered 3" cutter to do the surgery on mine.

    Should get at it tomorrow.

    I'll post more pics.

    My progress isn't all that slow, actually, since I was replacing floor sections, and patching, here and there, and even made some sub-frame connectors and welded them in.

    All unknown territory to me, but I learn 'on-the-job' a lot.
    Last edited by Stormin' Norman; 10-05-2015 at 05:47 PM. Reason: typo
    1979 Ford Fairmont 4-Eyed Squire (Mexican-Built) 3.3 I6 (200 CID) 4-Speed SROD Trans, Tri-Power

  24. #49
    FEP Super Member 84StangSVT's Avatar
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    That looks pretty gruesome also. I ended up selling the vert before I had the chance to tackle this job, so definitely feel free to add any pertinent information/pictures of the job to this thread as I'm sure it will be helpful to the next guy. My GT will be in the need of floorpan replacement so I'm hoping that job won't be a complete nightmare.
    Brock
    1984 Mustang LX Convertible 3.8L V-6/Auto (SOLD)
    1984 Mustang GT Hatchback 5.0 V-8/5 Speed

    I'm an FEP Supporter and proud of it. Are you?

  25. #50
    FEP Member Stormin' Norman's Avatar
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    If the cold weather holds off for a couple days, I'll have both frame rails done. Had to fabricate the parts for my Fairmont, and they worked out strong.

    I hope to post my pics and notes on Thursday. I took pictures at each step and noted the dimensions.

    I couldn't believe how mine were rotted out. They just turned to rust powder. I finished cutting out the driver's side today and it just disintegrated in less than a 30 inch drop!

    I'm using welded in nuts to hold the new flex brake hoses and their brackets.

    I'm using Cold Galvanize Primer on the inside before I weld it shut., then POR 15 on the outside, primer, rock guard and paint.
    Last edited by Stormin' Norman; 10-13-2015 at 07:40 PM. Reason: Typos
    1979 Ford Fairmont 4-Eyed Squire (Mexican-Built) 3.3 I6 (200 CID) 4-Speed SROD Trans, Tri-Power

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