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  1. #301
    FEP Supporter BMW Rider's Avatar
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    Finally the weather has reached more spring time conditions and did a bit of melting in our alley. That let me finally get the car moved over yesterday to the other bay of my garage where I could work on the alignment.

    I got the base settings dialed in for caster and camber and set the toe at zero to get to the bump steer adjustment. I worked on that today and have it pretty much as good as I seem to be able to get it. I'm OK with the left side, but the right still is not ideal, but its as good as I seem to be able to get it. I don't know what else I could do to improve it under bump. It is decent at the first inch of travel, but really toes in beyond that. Hopefully the super stiff springs will limit the amount of bump and it won't be problematic.

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    With that part done the next big task will be the corner balancing. After that it'll be drive time.

  2. #302
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    I can't remember which spindles you are running. If running the 94/95 with the MM K member then you might seriously consider swapping to the 96-04 spindles as the steering arm is lower and works better with the MM K member than the 94/95 spindles.
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
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    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Awaiting Restoration
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    1984 Capri Returned to Bubble Back Glory
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  3. #303
    FEP Supporter BMW Rider's Avatar
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    I do have the 96-04 spindles. The shim stacks are minimal at .300 on the left and .180 for the right. I also have toe out on both bump and droop on both sides. Not sure what is typical for a fox. My main concern is the rate of change on the right side. That stayed consistent no matter how I adjusted the shims. I was only able to bring the numbers closer to equal on bump and droop.

  4. #304

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    Ed,

    That is about as good as it can get with the combination of parts that you have.

    When you change stack height, the parabola will move up and down on the graph, but the overall shape will stay more or less the same.

    There is a parabola at all because the FCA is shorter than the tie rod in the front view. If the car is changed to SN95 FCAs, then both it and the tie rod increase in length by the same amount. As a percentage length, they get closer to being the same length. This makes the curve less parabolic. It will have a much larger curvature, so it will have less rate of change of steer angle for a given suspension travel.

    The right side curve probably has a smaller curvature because the steering rack is not quite centered. The rack is too close to the right side of the car. To get zero toe on both front tires, this means that the right tie rod is going to be shorter than the left tie rod. Before bumpsteering the car, follow the directions in the MM steering shaft installation directions to center the steering rack. Even if this operation is done perfectly, the rack pivots (inner tie rods) may not be symmetrically located compared to the FCA pivots and outer tie rods due to asymmetries in the spindles, k-member, FCAs, etc.

    I would add about 0.060" to the right side bumpsteer stack. This will move the parabola on that side of the car upwards, which will make the curve flatter in the 0-2" of bump range. That is the most important range of suspension travel to have the best bumpsteer curve in because it is going to be the more loaded tire.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  5. #305
    FEP Supporter BMW Rider's Avatar
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    Thanks Jack, I was kind of hoping you'd jump in on this. I did center the rack and set the toe to neutral from that point. I have the MM solid rack bushings. Can I adjust them to shift the rack a bit to the left? As for the shims, I started with the same as the left side and ended up at this which I thought was much better. I'll have to re-look at the numbers with the various shim stacks and see how it looked with more thickness.
    Last edited by BMW Rider; 04-11-2018 at 09:00 PM.

  6. #306

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    Ed,

    I think trying to adjust the rack position is a waste of time. You can try it, but the only way to know when it is correct is to measure the bumpsteer curve for both sides of the car and compare them. When they have the same curvature, the inner tie rods are centered.

    To give you an idea of the sensitivity of the bumpsteer curve to the position of the inner tie rods I ran a simulation below. The front suspension is perfectly symmetrical except that the steering rack is moved towards one side of the car by 1/16". This amount is probably about the clearance of the steering rack mounting mechanism on the k-member.

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    With really good bumpsteer data, you can diagnose a lot of of suspension and steering problems, but the data has to be really accurate.
    Last edited by Jack Hidley; 04-11-2018 at 11:17 PM.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  7. #307
    FEP Supporter BMW Rider's Avatar
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    That does look pretty close to what I'm getting, so given such a minute variation, I agree it's probably not worth the effort to mess with it. I'll look at the data from yesterdays measuring with regards to adding back the shim on the right and just do some rechecking and such to verify all is correct.

    Having never done bumpsteer setting before, I may just be over thinking things.

    One further question on the spacers. In the initial installation the instructions have the large tapered spacer above the bearing end and the .048 below with the 4 1/2" bolts. After adding the shims with the tapered spacer, I reduced the bottom spacers to a .12 so the nut would engage the threads fully. Is that acceptable or is there a need for the .48 spacer below and thus should I move to the longer 5 1/2" bolts.

  8. #308

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    There only needs to be a 0.080" of spacer below the outer tie rod end. This is to keep the rod end body from hitting the nut when the suspension goes through its full range of travel. Store as many of the unused spacers between the tie rod and nut as possible. This way you can't lose them.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  9. #309
    FEP Supporter BMW Rider's Avatar
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    I got all the set up done, at least well enough for street driving and testing. I will probably revisit it all later after some miles and once I have a feel for how its working. I kept the alignment numbers in the range of street driving for now, so once I decide to start running it in autocross or on a track, I'll want to adjust for that anyway.

    Final weight was more than I had originally wanted at 3220 lbs; I had wanted to keep it under 3000. Much of that is owing to the extra interior work and sound proofing that was not in the original plan. Oh well, I really like where the car has come to from the original concepts. The balance is pretty decent at 53/47 front and rear, 49/51 right to left with driver only. It would be nice to have a set of electronic scales to do the weighting, the cheap manual setup I have works well, but it sure is time consuming.

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    Last thing I need to do before driving is to get it back up on the lift and reconnect the sway bars and double check everything is tight. I also still need to put in the brake duct hoses up front which were waiting on the bumpsteer adjustment.

  10. #310

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    Looks awesome. I feeling the silver strips more now that it is all together. Good job!

    Jess
    Previously owned;
    1979 Mustang, v6 swapped to EFI 393, custom installed m122 blower, 4r70w trans, Megasquirt II, T-top swaped in.
    1990 Mustang, 545 BBF, C-4 with brake, ladder bars.
    1983 Mustang, 1984 SVO Mustang
    1984 Mustang convertible, v6 swapped to 351
    1986 Mustang GT, 1989 Mustang GT convertible
    1992 Mustang coupe, 4 swapped to 302

  11. #311
    FEP Supporter BMW Rider's Avatar
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    Thanks. My painter said it was one of his favourite cars he's done with all the little details that come together to make the whole image. Most are just standard fox details, but I gotta say, Ford did a good job with the original design on these cars and how all the accents and details work to make it look right.

  12. #312

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    Congratulations!!

    You may like removing the stock rear sway bar to eliminate bind.

    MM makes a sway kit that doesn’t not cause near the bind and is less sway bar rate and is adjustable. Just what the DR ordered

  13. #313
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    That is what I have on the rear.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    Congratulations!!

    You may like removing the stock rear sway bar to eliminate bind.

    MM makes a sway kit that doesn’t not cause near the bind and is less sway bar rate and is adjustable. Just what the DR ordered
    IIRC he's running the MM Torque Arm setup in addition to their lower control arms, and the adjustable rear sway bar, so standard Fox Quadra Bind is NOT an issue for this Fox!

    Looks Good Congrats!
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Awaiting Restoration
    1984 SVO Restoration in Progress
    1986 GT Wrecked by PO, but still want to save!

    Current Capris:
    1982 Capri Roller
    1984 Capri Returned to Bubble Back Glory
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts
    1982 Capri RS 5.0 4spd T-tops

  15. #315
    FEP Supporter BMW Rider's Avatar
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    Correct on all points Trey. I threw the MM catalog under the car.

  16. #316

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    Damn, that's pretty nice. Maybe one day when my car 85 grows up, it can 1/4 that nice!
    1985 GT, Sunroof, 5 Lug, Rear Discs, 01 Graphite Bullets, 88 forged piston shortblock, 2.02/1.60 Alum heads, Weiand Stealth, Holley C950 TBI, BBK Long tubes

  17. #317
    FEP Senior Member flyin5-o's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMW Rider View Post
    I got all the set up done, at least well enough for street driving and testing. I will probably revisit it all later after some miles and once I have a feel for how its working. I kept the alignment numbers in the range of street driving for now, so once I decide to start running it in autocross or on a track, I'll want to adjust for that anyway.

    Final weight was more than I had originally wanted at 3220 lbs; I had wanted to keep it under 3000. Much of that is owing to the extra interior work and sound proofing that was not in the original plan. Oh well, I really like where the car has come to from the original concepts. The balance is pretty decent at 53/47 front and rear, 49/51 right to left with driver only. It would be nice to have a set of electronic scales to do the weighting, the cheap manual setup I have works well, but it sure is time consuming.

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    Last thing I need to do before driving is to get it back up on the lift and reconnect the sway bars and double check everything is tight. I also still need to put in the brake duct hoses up front which were waiting on the bumpsteer adjustment.
    Wow, you have me scared now. I need to be 3000# or under with a full tank and my big ass in it or I have to re-do the cage...

  18. #318
    FEP Senior Member flyin5-o's Avatar
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    Double post.
    Last edited by flyin5-o; 04-15-2018 at 02:28 PM.

  19. #319
    FEP Supporter BMW Rider's Avatar
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    You'd have to be ruthless with weight reduction I think to meet that goal. The weight for mine was full fuel, but less the driver, that added in puts me at 3400. I could drop weight with aluminum heads, and like I said, the interior stuff probably adds 150 lbs. Other than that one would have to do more fiberglass body parts and dump anything not totally necessary. Of course the MM stuff is not the lightest either, but I think that is worthwhile weight.

    What is the issue with your cage? Did you go with smaller tube, mine is all 1.75" DOM steel.

  20. #320
    FEP Supporter BMW Rider's Avatar
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    So this happened Friday afternoon.

    https://youtu.be/V90rV9EVWwc

  21. #321
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    From xecute S (aka xctasy)
    1 second ago
    BMW Rider, well done my man. Its perfect!

  22. #322

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    Right on man! Nice fist ride.

  23. #323
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Sounds good! I like the exhaust tone.
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Awaiting Restoration
    1984 SVO Restoration in Progress
    1986 GT Wrecked by PO, but still want to save!

    Current Capris:
    1982 Capri Roller
    1984 Capri Returned to Bubble Back Glory
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts
    1982 Capri RS 5.0 4spd T-tops

  24. #324
    FEP Supporter BMW Rider's Avatar
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    It has a nice growl to it, but does not seem obnoxious. Pretty good inside with the mufflers way to the back too. The ride did not seem as harsh as I thought it could be with the solid suspension bushings and such. Everything was tight and tracked straight. The tires hook up pretty well for being cold and on cold asphalt. I was unsure how the 3.08 gears in the back would be, but honestly, I don't think they'd need to be lower. After some break in time an time for the EFI to learn, I'd like to see what it has on a dyno. It did stall a couple times coming to a stop, but restarted easily. That will hopefully sort itself too as the EFI learns.

  25. #325
    FEP Senior Member flyin5-o's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMW Rider View Post
    You'd have to be ruthless with weight reduction I think to meet that goal. The weight for mine was full fuel, but less the driver, that added in puts me at 3400. I could drop weight with aluminum heads, and like I said, the interior stuff probably adds 150 lbs. Other than that one would have to do more fiberglass body parts and dump anything not totally necessary. Of course the MM stuff is not the lightest either, but I think that is worthwhile weight.

    What is the issue with your cage? Did you go with smaller tube, mine is all 1.75" DOM steel.
    Yes, I have a 1 5/8" DOM S&W 10pt. When I first started building it I never intended to do any wheel to wheel stuff with it. The cage was more for chassis stiffness and my own piece of mind. Now that I decided to do a Lemons race I have to keep the car under 3000# as raced for the cage to be legal. I have however been more ruthless in it's diet than you. Front bumper cover is gutted, no front bumper reinforcement or headlight panel, bumper shocks gone, doors are so gutted I am almost afraid to open them. Fiberglass hood, no HVAC, sound deadening removed, dash gutted , and the steel rear bumper reinforcement now weighs 14.8#. Just gotta keep my fingers crossed

    BTW, Congrats on the first ride Dude!!
    Last edited by flyin5-o; 04-18-2018 at 01:03 PM.

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