BMW like Fairmont

[whatdoyouguyswannado]

I've had a dream for years, and I may never do it, or maybe one day I will.

I want to buy a really basic 1978 - 82 Fairmont 4 door sedan or maybe a wagon, and make it as close to a BMW e30 or even an e39, as I possibly can. I've read every thread on making a fox handle that good, feel that good, or be that balanced, but usually the last post is that the OP went out and just bought an e46 M3. They gave up.

So, it probably isn't possible to make it as good or better, but maybe that would be fine for me. I currently drive a 2003 Focus ZX3 5-speed with the SVT suspension kit, 17 inch Ford Racing wheels, and ContiExtreme Contact DW tires. and I'm more than happy with that. I also have a 1979 Cadillac Deville with some Vogtland springs, Bilstein shocks, and Caprice 9c1 stabilizer bars, and I'm pretty happy with it most of the time too. It's clearly not as well sorted out as the Focus, but it can still be a lot of fun.

I never go to the track, I just like a good handling, fun to drive car that makes me feel good when I'm behind the wheel.

The fantasy build is the 4 door Fairmont, in a sort of 70s orange color.
Dash from a later model fox mustang (pre sn95). Make the interior dark gray, cloth seats.
Subframe connectors. Any other re-inforcements I would want to consider?
The best K member and front suspension I can get that will suit my needs. I probably don't need a griggs SLA, but if it gets me the closest, why not?
Cobra IRS swap for the rear.
Full coil over conversion, but I'd want some compliance for rough roads etc. Sometimes even the vogtlands/bilsteins on the Cadillac seem pretty harsh to me.
Engine, I don't know. I've considered everything from a 2.3 turbo, a newer duratec 2.3 swap from a ranger, a classic 5.0, just starting with a basic sohc 4.6/5 speed, or eventually going coyote/6 speed. The i4s would probably get the best handling balance, while a stock sohc 4.6 would probably be the cheapest/easiest/most reliable. Anyway, the engine isn't as important to me as the rest is.

Any thoughts?

I feel like it might not be what a BMW is, but a BMW is just another BMW. I like the hard core Ford, stripped down, no nonsense, man's car, but make it clean, and I've seen some pretty clean Fairmonts online.

[Mike Croke]

Agent 47 makes a SLA front suspension for the Foxes. I have no experience with it.

The new S197 Mustangs have significantly improved suspension: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOwSPccbzl4

[ZephyrEFI]

I don't give a rip about BMW, but my car is pretty close to what you're talking about, minus the exotic suspension. You could call it a poor man's version though. H&R Sport Springs and Tokico Blue dampeners. Stock configuration, all rubber bushings, thru floor subframe connectors. I think it rides great and handles well too. I have 16" wheels and Continental Extreme Contact DW tires.

Lots of guys have built or are building some sweet Fairmonts, Zephyrs, LTDs, etc done up to handle. The Daddywagon (see build thread) is an LTD wagon with the Cobra IRS.

[whatdoyouguyswannado]

Nice! The Daddywagon is sick.

[DrewM]

The problem is that you're just never going to make a Mustang handle like a BMW, even an early car like an E30. You can make it handle/stick better, but you will make some serious compromises with ride quality. Not to the point of making the car undrivable, but the BMW gives you a nice comfortable/compliant ride while still being controlled which gives that good handling. That just isn't going to happen on the Fox platform, even going to something 'exotic' like the double arm setup mentioned above.

[wraithracing]

I see some conflicts with your desires that may or may not cause you issues with the build. Based upon your statements it appears that you want a great handling street car without sacrificing ride quality. This is a bit of an issue in that to improve handling you need to remove much of the flex, weight shifting, and sloppiness in the OEM suspension. This will in effect stiffen up the suspension to make the handling gains, so you will lose some ride compliance. I won't say that the ride quality is poor, but again a Lincoln/Cadillac doesn't handle like a Mustang and a Mustang generally doesn't ride as well as a Lincoln/Cadillac.

As with so many car issues, ride quality and handling are subjective and each driver/owner has their own ideas. I am not a BMW guy, but I have ridden in a few and will say that the ride quality is good, but stiffer than many similar American cars. Though I won't say that there are many true competitors to the BMW made by American car companies.

I would say the best bang for your buck with a Fairmont is to go through the entire Maximum Motorsports catalog and put together a complete package from them that suits your needs. Their K member with their coil over kits will be the best option for the front. I don't see any street benefits or ride qualtiy benefits to a SLA as when compared to the best sorted out Strut suspensions the SLA is only worth a couple of tenths on the track, so the added costs are probably better spent elsewhere. Full length subframe connectors, strut tower brace, and K member brace will stiffen up the chassis to aid handling and allow the suspension to do it's job better. The Cobra IRS is an option out back, just be aware of the rear track width increase and the wheel offset issues it causes. Besides that the Cobra IRS has many issues when used with a powerful engine that will need to be addressed to assure good handling and ride quality. In truth a well sorted out 8.8 with a torque arm, and coil overs would probably work just as well and not have some of the issues and expense of the Cobra IRS.

I would recommend either the Koni adjustable struts and shocks or Tokico Illumina struts and shocks to help you fine tune your ride and handling to your liking as the Bilsteins are great, but are probably a bit stiffer than you want. The Tokico's don't support high spring rates with coil overs, but that shouldn't be an issue with your goals in mind.

The engine and drivetrain are hard ones to advise on as you have mentioned several options. IMHO the 5.0/5 spd is hard combo to beat as it can be setup for good driveability and decent power. The Turbo 4 can be a blast, but can also be a bit under powered for a large 4 door and adding power to the 4 can make them a bit more temperamental IMHO. Personally I don't see the SOHC 4.6 being worth the time and trouble for the swap. Due to the size, the electronics, etc. you might as well go 4 valve Cobra, Mach 1, or Terminator and get the better power and the cool factor. Of course the Coyote is an excellent option if you have the funds to go that route. It's a hard combo to beat and makes plenty of power with all the great driveability too. The 6 speed is a nice option, but truthfully a Tremec TKO 5 speed is a cheaper option that will work just fine in most cases. Although the T56 does shift much better than the TKO line does, although there are ways to improve that too.

Brakes are another factor that really needs to be considered to elevate your Fairmont to the standards you want. I would recommend the SN95 spindles and brakes all the way around on your setup. That gives you the wider option on calipers, rotor size, and works well with all of your suspension choices. The spindles will be determined by your K member setup and if you choose 17" wheels or larger the Cobra 13" front rotors are a great consideration for the front.

Good Luck!

Trey

[conmech]

Your new wagon awaits you:

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...olling-Chassis

[Dean_T]

Agent 47 makes a SLA front suspension for the Foxes. I have no experience with it.

The new S197 Mustangs have significantly improved suspension: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOwSPccbzl4

The Agent 47 SLA significantly widens the front track width to the point that they advertise the Fox Mustang must have it's fenders modified in order to fit the tires.

I was seriously thinking of getting this for my '82 Cougar wagon (it's a Mercury, it should have a better front suspension - lol) but from what I understand, I would have to basically chop up my front fenders. No can do...

[4eyedgirlsdoitbetter]

I don't mean to stir anything here but I'm fairly certain I can get a fox body to handle better than any bmw.
Way cheaper than 5k on the front end alone.

[wraithracing]

I don't mean to stir anything here but I'm fairly certain I can get a fox body to handle better than any bmw.
Way cheaper than 5k on the front end alone.

I don't believe anyone said this wasn't possible, but trying to get a 4 door Fairmont to handle and ride better than a BMW may be a bit more of a challenge.

The Agent 47 SLA is an awesome front suspension and for the guy looking for a bolt in setup that will dramatically change the handling of a Fox based car, it's hard to beat. Although as stated it's not cheap, but you are paying for all the development work and all the research.

Trey

[vintageracer]

Have you ever driven an E30 M3?

Rough Ride, A 4 Cylinder engine that makes NO POWER below 4K RPM, Noisy, and hugely expensive to maintain. Can you say $10K+ for a basic engine rebuild?

Now for all that compromise you do get a very good handling and very fast track car IF you know how to drive the car to its potential. As far as a street driver they are not a very good daily driver. Let's just say you are definitely a BMW "Enthusiast" is you drive an E30 M3 as a daily driver. Most folks would find the E30 325IS to be a much better car for the average enthusiast given the 6 cylinder engine with more torque and a softer sport suspension.

Having said all that I see no reason why you could not build a similar performing car out of your Fairmont given the aftermarket support now available for the Fox Mustang. Definitely would not be cheap but certainly less that a buying an E30 M3 for $20K-$40K in today's market or maybe a better comparison would be a "good" E30 325IS that are for sale in $7K-$10K range. About what you might spend building your Fairmont.

Just don't load your Fairmont down with a big HEAVY engine!

[Mike Croke]

I have heard that the newer S197 (now ~ ten years old) front suspension is essentially BMW 5-series geometry? I wonder if it would be possible to fab/graft the front bits from an S197 onto a Fox?

[DrewM]

I don't mean to stir anything here but I'm fairly certain I can get a fox body to handle better than any bmw.
Way cheaper than 5k on the front end alone.

Define "handle". If you just want a car to go around a corner faster than XYZ, then sure (sorta), no problem. Throw some really sticky tires on the car, dampen some body movements and you'll very likely get around a corner faster, fix all of the various suspension issues and you'll go even faster. Of course the guy in the BMW will spend less and have less extreme modifications to do in order to match your updates due to a much better overall design (no having to redesign the whole rear-end just to get it to move in proper directions).

And all of that will compromise other aspects of how the car drives when you're not slinging it around corners. Getting rid of rubber bushings for something more solid just to account for shortcomings in the car setup drives NVH right through the roof, stiff springs rattle your eyeballs on 'average' streets, etc.

I have heard that the newer S197 (now ~ ten years old) front suspension is essentially BMW 5-series geometry? I wonder if it would be possible to fab/graft the front bits from an S197 onto a Fox?

It may share some 'geometry' at some point, but it will not share the same geometry throughout it's entire range of motion as the setups are quite different.

The 2015 design is quite different and has many more BMW (along with any number of other cars) design elements in the front suspension.

[4eyedgirlsdoitbetter]

Define "handle". If you just want a car to go around a corner faster than XYZ, then sure (sorta), no problem. Throw some really sticky tires on the car, dampen some body movements and you'll very likely get around a corner faster, fix all of the various suspension issues and you'll go even faster. Of course the guy in the BMW will spend less and have less extreme modifications to do in order to match your updates due to a much better overall design (no having to redesign the whole rear-end just to get it to move in proper directions).

And all of that will compromise other aspects of how the car drives when you're not slinging it around corners. Getting rid of rubber bushings for something more solid just to account for shortcomings in the car setup drives NVH right through the roof, stiff springs rattle your eyeballs on 'average' streets, etc.



It may share some 'geometry' at some point, but it will not share the same geometry throughout it's entire range of motion as the setups are quite different.

The 2015 design is quite different and has many more BMW (along with any number of other cars) design elements in the front suspension.

If you have some ingenuity a few dollars and a a welder, it would do everything better. I'm not saying it's a few bolt on components. You would have to replace the grocery getter suspension with something real, obviously a sla setup is more desirable. See my thread about the 86 supercar.
900 for a used c6 front subframe with everything included. I could do another one of these for about 900 in labor.

[85GT-79FJ40]

I think a fox 4 door or wagon that handles with V8 power would be awesome. However I happen to own a fairly well set up 89 325is and I had a pretty well set up 85 GT that I used to occasionally open-track with the BMWCCA at driver's schools. The GT had 4 wheel disc brakes (11" front turbocoupe rear) FMS springs, camber plates, KYB shocks, aftermarket LCA's, and poly swaybar bushings. It held it's own on the track and would absolutely run circles around my stock 84 Capri RS handling-wise. It wasn't the greatest riding car but I did DD it summers for a few years. However the BMW with powerflex bushings throughout, Koni's, H&R OE sport springs, stock brakes with cool carbon pads, and 15" Z rated tires would absolutely embarrass my old GT everywhere but a long straight. And it's comfortable, quiet, and gets about 26 MPG on the highway. However it has ZERO torque and I think my V6 4x4 Tacoma is slightly quicker to 60.

[nelzfoxes]

I think a fox 4 door or wagon that handles with V8 power would be awesome. However I happen to own a fairly well set up 89 325is and I had a pretty well set up 85 GT that I used to occasionally open-track with the BMWCCA at driver's schools. The GT had 4 wheel disc brakes (11" front turbocoupe rear) FMS springs, camber plates, KYB shocks, aftermarket LCA's, and poly swaybar bushings. It held it's own on the track and would absolutely run circles around my stock 84 Capri RS handling-wise. It wasn't the greatest riding car but I did DD it summers for a few years. However the BMW with powerflex bushings throughout, Koni's, H&R OE sport springs, stock brakes with cool carbon pads, and 15" Z rated tires would absolutely embarrass my old GT everywhere but a long straight. And it's comfortable, quiet, and gets about 26 MPG on the highway. However it has ZERO torque and I think my V6 4x4 Tacoma is slightly quicker to 60.

I love my tacoma! Haha!

[nelzfoxes]

Coyote, cobra brakes and suspension, and it will be done. You may have to beef up the cobra irs a little, but I think that would do it. You might even do it with a panhard bar and solid axle!

[MAD MIKE]

I've had a dream for years, and I may never do it, or maybe one day I will.

I want to buy a really basic 1978 - 82 Fairmont 4 door sedan or maybe a wagon, and make it as close to a BMW e30 or even an e39, as I possibly can. I've read every thread on making a fox handle that good, feel that good, or be that balanced, but usually the last post is that the OP went out and just bought an e46 M3. They gave up.

There a plenty of options that can be done to improve on the Fox-Chassis, but it will take a bit of money and work.
Biggest difference would be to change out the rear live axle for an IRS from a '99-'04 Cobra.
S550 is the Mustang that will have anything similar to the E39 multi-front/rear suspension. So toss that idea out.

BMW E36 have the front wheels pushed forward, with the centerline of the wheels somewhere between 1&2 cylinder of the I6, and comes from the factory with 6° of Positve caster, and 1.5° Negative camber.
F-C cars have the wheel centerline closer to the #4 cylinder on the I6, and come from the factory with very little caster, usually less than 1° Postive caster, and 0-1° Positive camber.

BMW E36 came with front lower control arms('boomerangs') that used a balljoint for the front 'bushing' and a large rear bushing('lollipop') for the rear caster bushing.
F-C cars used two large rubber bushings with quite a bit of compliance that would cause caster/camber change when loaded. This compliance can be removed by using Urethane bushings in the front control arms. Using longer '94-'04 A arms will improve the camber curve, or reduce the camber loss in compression.

With a stock K member in an F-C and MM CC plates you can gain up to ~4° Positive caster, and 1.5° Negative camber. This will greatly increase the cars cornering, but you will also now need to use a bumpsteer kit to bring the tierod back down to fix the bumpsteer now created by rotating the upright back and steering knuckle up.

BMW racks are rigidly mounted to the crossmember.
F-C units are mounted on two large marshmellow bushings, this can be fixed by using urethane or aluminum bushings.

So, it probably isn't possible to make it as good or better, but maybe that would be fine for me.

I never go to the track, I just like a good handling, fun to drive car that makes me feel good when I'm behind the wheel.

MMs front grip package would include most if not all what you would desire to fix the slop of the front end. No need to go full tubular K member or SLA.

Subframe connectors. Any other re-inforcements I would want to consider?

MMs strut tower brace. This will remove the cowl shake that all F-C cars have. Bolted between the firewall pinch weld and strut towers is the best method. Braces that bold to the middle of the upper cowl panel do not properly stiffen the chassis.

The best K member and front suspension I can get that will suit my needs. I probably don't need a griggs SLA, but if it gets me the closest, why not?

For a street car that you will cruise in, there is no need to go full on K member swap. With the exception if you have an early 78-80 car with the huge heavy weldment of a K member. You will probably shave about 20lbs from the front end just by changing it to a later 84-93 unit.
Griggs are unobtainable these days, last I heard Bruce was working out of his garage.
And although a SLA would be nice, from a track record standpoint, there is not a brand that can outcompete a properly setup strut system. It is why MM has yet to make an SLA for the F-C/SN95 cars, no need.

Cobra IRS swap for the rear.

Yup. Live axle is brutally simple/strong, but there is always the issue of any thing that will upset one wheel will affect the opposite side as well. If you ever have the oppurtunity to ride in a car at a track with Esses, and compare a live axle Mustang to an IRS equipped car the diifference is astounding. Live axle will punt you around quite a bit when tagging the berms. IRS, you will hear it but the car will just glide over the berms.

Full coil over conversion, but I'd want some compliance for rough roads etc. Sometimes even the vogtlands/bilsteins on the Cadillac seem pretty harsh to me.

This has more to do with proper spring/damper pairing.
I have a '87 'G' Cutlass. Replaced the stock mush springs up front with S-10 springs and S-10 Bils. The car rides so much better and handling increased 10 fold. Firm but not harsh or violent at all. I have also replaced the bushings with Delrin which is also a large factory in getting rid of the violence underfoot. When the control arms can properly control the upright the car will do what you want it to, most of the time.

Any thoughts?

Turbo 4 has the weight advantage, but you will have to make sure your cooling and ducting are correct to prevent overheating/heat soak. In a street car this should not be too hard, but if you ever get the bug to hit the track pipe you will want to keep tabs on this.
Fuelie 302 would be the cheapest/easiest/best bang for the buck.
305HP 3.7 would be a sweet drivetrain, small, lightweight, but no controls pack offered.
Can't beat Coyote power/reliability, but the cost will be closer to 10K just to have the engine, which would require a modular K member(96-04) installed.

I feel like it might not be what a BMW is, but a BMW is just another BMW. I like the hard core Ford, stripped down, no nonsense, man's car, but make it clean, and I've seen some pretty clean Fairmonts online.

Marrtin Pond on here has a couple of Fairmonts. He has a Wagon with the IRS and often attends the local GoodGuys events, usually placing pretty high up with his 2dr Sedan Fairmont.

[Patrick Olsen]

I'm sure it's horribly overkill, but the idea of a nice, lightweight Fairmont chassis with a SLA front end (maybe find an old Bartsworks/HPM setup for cheap?) and a Cobra IRS would be pretty cool.

This has more to do with proper spring/damper pairing.

That's definitely a lesson I've learned over the years with all 3 of my cars. It's amazing how much of a difference it makes to have a properly matched setup. The first coil-over setup I ran on my Mustang years ago was 300# springs with Koni Reds. Horrible, way underdamped. Same coil-overs with Koni Yellows was fantastic!

[DrewM]

BMW E36 have the front wheels pushed forward, with the centerline of the wheels somewhere between 1&2 cylinder of the I6, and comes from the factory with 6° of Positve caster, and 1.5° Negative camber.
F-C cars have the wheel centerline closer to the #4 cylinder on the I6, and come from the factory with very little caster, usually less than 1° Postive caster, and 0-1° Positive camber.

BMW E36 came with front lower control arms('boomerangs') that used a balljoint for the front 'bushing' and a large rear bushing('lollipop') for the rear caster bushing.
F-C cars used two large rubber bushings with quite a bit of compliance that would cause caster/camber change when loaded. This compliance can be removed by using Urethane bushings in the front control arms. Using longer '94-'04 A arms will improve the camber curve, or reduce the camber loss in compression.

With a stock K member in an F-C and MM CC plates you can gain up to ~4° Positive caster, and 1.5° Negative camber. This will greatly increase the cars cornering, but you will also now need to use a bumpsteer kit to bring the tierod back down to fix the bumpsteer now created by rotating the upright back and steering knuckle up.

You hit on some it when it comes to caster/camber, the bigger issue is that because of the pickup points being so different and in different locations is how the suspension reacts as it goes through it's range (the BMW LCA points are much higher than the balljoint - and the front and rear points of the LCA are pretty much the opposite of the Fox with the rear point being located much further in than the Fox). The BMW will increase caster and decrease camber as the suspension compresses (this is all good), the Fox will do the same to some degree and then go the wrong direction, this problem is made worse on a lowered car as the plane of the BJ and LCA point gets closer to horizontal and as the suspension compresses you get closer to it going past horizontal (the BJ being higher than the pickup point). Find some auto-cross photos of stock/nearly-stock Fox/SN95 Mustangs and you'll see a heavily loaded up front wheel with positive camber, sometimes what looks like an alarming amount.

So to combat that you run CC plates to get a better starting point, but you still have to run higher springs rates to keep things under control/where they should be, but your ride/NVH turns to poo as a result.

The MM k-member solves some of that issue, but you can only do so much given the restrictions of the rest of the car. Hence the Griggs/Agent 47 SLA setup, or nuke the front end and graft something else onto it. All of them are extreme options for a street car.

Doing the full on 'cobra' suspension setup is certainly a good step, but at the end of the day you still have a Fox platform car that handles like an IRS equipped Cobra. There is some improvement there, but it still isn't going to be a BMW like ride.

[Dean_T]

The V8 really kills any handling the fox chassis has. Get the weight off the nose and it's amazing how much better it can corner. This is my experience with an '87 4 banger Mustang with V8 sway bars and junk yard struts and SVO Koni shocks in the rear. The whole car weighs about 2400lbs and it rides a bit high on its 4 cylinder springs and stock control arms and 7.5 rear. I'm waiting for the 7.5 to explode...

[whatdoyouguyswannado]

I wonder if a duratec 2.3 swap would really be that hard. My focus weighs 2,700 lbs, and it moves fine with the 2.0 zetec for me. Fairmonts probably don't weigh a whole lot more than a mustang, right?

[wraithracing]

The electronics will be the most difficult along with the wiring. The Duratec 2.3 wasn't available in anything other than a FWD IIRC, so the transmission will be another hurdle. Nothing insurmountable, but a hurdle no-less. I am not sure what the costs would be as I have not attempted to source one, but I am sure the best swap option would be to purchase an entire vehicle, use all that is needed for the swap and sell the remains. Otherwise you might be nickle and dimed to death on all the misc and little parts to make it all work.

I had/have seriously considered a 3.0 DOHC SHO V6 swap into a SVO for many years as I love the engine, think it looks cool, runs really well, and is much smoother and higher revving than the 2.3 Turbo. But all the headaches with the swap keep me from doing it and IMHO it's a much simpler swap than the Duratec.

Trey

[whatdoyouguyswannado]

You could get the duratec 2.3 in the ranger with a 5-speed. CA smog laws would prevent me from using an actual one from a trunk in a car, but perhaps the FWD version wouldn't be too hard to adapt then.

[Patrick Olsen]

Greg Banish, who has written a couple books about ECU tuning, is putting a turbo Duratec into an SN95 Mustang to use as a teaching tool. He's using a 2.5L Duratec from an Escape and a Quad4rods.com bellhousing. http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums...ad.php?t=48040 and on FB - https://www.facebook.com/ecoboostcobra. You can also find some discussion on various sites of using the 2.3L Duratec, so it's definitely possible.