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  1. #201
    FEP Super Member IDMooseMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wraithracing View Post
    I am not sure how much information you can really gain with some stationary fans, unless they are some really big and powerful fans. You can definitely give it a try, but I wouldn't put too much stock in any information you learn. I would use it as advisory or limited at best.
    That's all I was suggesting for the fan use. I was giving an idea on how to get some air flowing over the car so he could see what might be happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by IDMooseMan View Post
    ...Granted, this method is by no means accurate for high-speed wind-tunnel testing, but it will give you an idea of what the flow patterns might look like.
    That's why I made this statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by wraithracing View Post
    I would also recommend that rather than using the baby powder, I would recommend using small pieces of string or very light weight plastic tape (either of them brightly colored), cut pieces around 2-3 inches in length and then tape them down to the areas of the body that you want to check. Turn the fans on and watch the airflow by how the strings/tapes are moving. This allows you to view for a much longer time and even take pictures of the areas if you want...
    The string/tape idea sounds good, too. I use the baby powder in a bottle method when hunting and saw another use for it.
    Craig "IDMooseMan" Peters
    1979 Mustang Ghia Notchback, 2.3L, Holley 5200, 4-spd, 3.08:1 7.5" diff, A/C, PS, PB, AM/FM/8-Track, Sunroof, Rear Defroster
    USAF SSgt 63170 1983 - 1992; Co-Founder, Vice President, Omega Delta Sigma, ID-A 2/2015
    To those that serve and have served, "Thank You", to those that haven't, "You're Welcome"
    2.3L Horsepower Potential Thread
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    The Four-Eyed Game - 2018 Version

  2. #202

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    Well folks its been some time and I have been away obviously. I have been busy with family life but also have managed to make some progress. The pic shows the quarter panel area, everything from the mid section down is in sheet metal while the top portion is mocked up in cardboard to get an idea on lines and suchName:  IMG_3251.jpg
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    current : 2002 GT with terminator swap
    1986 LX t-top
    2002 F150 FX4
    1998 R1 custom
    2007 TL type S (beater car)
    previous: 80 Cobra,86 GT (learned GT= great times) 93 Lightning,85 Capri RS, 73 coupe, 72 fastback, 3 turbo coupes

  3. #203

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    Glad to see work progressing! Thanks for the update! This car is going to be SWEET.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI T-5 (Mustang LWB)
    '17 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  4. #204
    FEP Super Member IDMooseMan's Avatar
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    Thanks for the updates. Looking forward to seeing more. Keep at it. It'll be done one day.
    Craig "IDMooseMan" Peters
    1979 Mustang Ghia Notchback, 2.3L, Holley 5200, 4-spd, 3.08:1 7.5" diff, A/C, PS, PB, AM/FM/8-Track, Sunroof, Rear Defroster
    USAF SSgt 63170 1983 - 1992; Co-Founder, Vice President, Omega Delta Sigma, ID-A 2/2015
    To those that serve and have served, "Thank You", to those that haven't, "You're Welcome"
    2.3L Horsepower Potential Thread
    Buyer/Seller Experience Link
    Build Thread
    The Four-Eyed Game - 2018 Version

  5. #205

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    Here is the update for Jan 2016. I've finished the small section below the molding line behind the door. Inside is support for the "clam shell" upper section that will move. The rest is mocked up in air filter boxes, I have the guys at work save them for me. Im all about recycling lol. Name:  jan 3 2016 100.jpg
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    I painted the cardboard to get a better idea on body lines, there are a few areas that immediately jumped out after painting.
    current : 2002 GT with terminator swap
    1986 LX t-top
    2002 F150 FX4
    1998 R1 custom
    2007 TL type S (beater car)
    previous: 80 Cobra,86 GT (learned GT= great times) 93 Lightning,85 Capri RS, 73 coupe, 72 fastback, 3 turbo coupes

  6. #206

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    Right now the profile on the tire looks to small. It needs to be bigger to fill the wheel opening. The back end also looks like it is missing a big spoiler to off set the smaller back end. I like it!
    1985 Mustang GT 5speed LRB with Ford Racing M-6007-X302, Performer RPM, Holley 670 Avenger carb, BBK headers with H-pipe, B&M short throw
    1986 Mustang GT (parts car)
    1986 LX Coupe 4cyl, 4speed, LRB

  7. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tracer View Post
    Right now the profile on the tire looks to small. It needs to be bigger to fill the wheel opening. The back end also looks like it is missing a big spoiler to off set the smaller back end. I like it!
    Rear tires are slated to be 28" tall. The one in the pic is 26" and was merely for construction purposes. Warn out viper tire still $100 on ebay.
    current : 2002 GT with terminator swap
    1986 LX t-top
    2002 F150 FX4
    1998 R1 custom
    2007 TL type S (beater car)
    previous: 80 Cobra,86 GT (learned GT= great times) 93 Lightning,85 Capri RS, 73 coupe, 72 fastback, 3 turbo coupes

  8. #208
    FEP Super Member IDMooseMan's Avatar
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    Looking good, ma'am. I like the way your garage is setup, too.
    Craig "IDMooseMan" Peters
    1979 Mustang Ghia Notchback, 2.3L, Holley 5200, 4-spd, 3.08:1 7.5" diff, A/C, PS, PB, AM/FM/8-Track, Sunroof, Rear Defroster
    USAF SSgt 63170 1983 - 1992; Co-Founder, Vice President, Omega Delta Sigma, ID-A 2/2015
    To those that serve and have served, "Thank You", to those that haven't, "You're Welcome"
    2.3L Horsepower Potential Thread
    Buyer/Seller Experience Link
    Build Thread
    The Four-Eyed Game - 2018 Version

  9. #209
    FEP Super Member 69clark's Avatar
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    Looking good. I like.
    Tom

    CAMMED & SLAMMED! For more build pics and updates: http://www.facebook.com/SINISBuilt


    For being "BUILT not BOUGHT" I am still broke!

  10. #210

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    Any updates?
    85 Capri RS

  11. #211

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    Updates for any interested parties, pushrod rear suspension is done. Working on body again, someone please help!!!!!! I am not a English wheel body and fender guy!Name:  426.jpg
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    current : 2002 GT with terminator swap
    1986 LX t-top
    2002 F150 FX4
    1998 R1 custom
    2007 TL type S (beater car)
    previous: 80 Cobra,86 GT (learned GT= great times) 93 Lightning,85 Capri RS, 73 coupe, 72 fastback, 3 turbo coupes

  12. #212

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    Wow....... unreal
    Brian R. of Michigan
    83 TBird 5.0
    88 Ranger 2.3t
    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...83-Tbird-build

  13. #213
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    I'm familiar with most of the issues, more from a design standpoint because I did a 1987 Mid-Engine car project for Technical Drawing as a kid and got 92% for it. Tutor was a dick, I should have been marked down for stupid drawing construction, but the whole world is pretty ignorant when it won't take time to read truly wonderful US and European and British Isles car construction.

    De Tomaso’s were built in Australia for a time, and our Kiwi race car builders have done the glorious Iron and alloy SB and BB V8 thing to death. Nowhere in the world is a GT40 more loved than in New Zealand. And mostly, it was Kiwi, Aussie and English development engineers who killed themselves in these kinds of cars from the 60's to the super sedan era. So Mid-engine cars are not things to trifle with.


    English wheeling and hammer forming I did back in 2002 in the North Island on a 1915 Dodge. Wasted chassis, only one in the world IIRC because 1915 Dodges weren't made. The issues over modern mid / rear engine Fox retro fits were debated (rather hotly) back here.

    Page 3 sums it up...http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...gine-fox/page3.

    The reason I didn't weigh in on your post (G""d knows I have on everything else) is because I live in a Provence were we build replica Aston Martins, D and C type Jaguars at Dunedin Air Port with their original engines, and coach builders here know all the tricks, but tend to use aluminum, like the old Austin Healy. It’s a great material, all our buses used to be beaten alloy, and its fun to slam and form, but very difficult to prime and smooth and paint without real work.

    So steel is kind of boring, and the same issues crop up with mid-engine Fox designs, wheelhouse size, and scoping the project.


    The whole concept of cutting pressed steel creates a real problem with how ridgity is maintained. Effectively, you are forced to play welded section and Italian tube to box section transitions, or Countach/ Gullwing Mercedes style internal gussets to maintain bending stiffness.


    Alloy is a better building material, but it actually doesn't matter, because even if it’s a little bit heaver with a 4.6 inside, it’s going to rock.

    Sadly, I think about how much better it would be with alloy panels. Alloy is a bitch to hammer form, but you can do it.


    If you’re doing steel, get the wheel, and make more rejects to make it all go together. Two guys working an EW get sharper, harder, and better results, it’s like heavy metal guitar practice. Hear (See/Feel) that, you missed a change. Let’s do it again...


    In your case, you’ve had a good think about every aspect, and props on the on the suspension.


    For 10 years, a company called Joss made a prototype JT-1 (Ford V8, G50 Porsche gearbox) then JP-1 (6.8 engines, transverse seamless gearbox). Pumped a bunch of money into development, failed to make it work economically. The people who make supercars work aren’t Bruce McLaren or John Z De Loren. Its artists who are like film directors. They have vision, and flair and contacts. Kiwis and Aussies are passionless people; they don't whoop and talk bigger than they act. The Italians do, have a mixture of "I’m so gonna whip your a$$" like Africans fronting, yet in the end, they pull it all together. Americans can be like that too.

    Do the flares in paper Mache if you have to, but make a buck that you can form and check dimensions with. Then learn to wheel it with you, and one other trusted friend. If you aren't physically jaded from a day’s work, you can use a daughter old enough to help out. It’s not about strength; it’s about being safe, and mapping out the compound curves, and cutting it into sections and joining it. You can have someone make stuff in PE if you really must. 3d modelling has no limits.


    How do you think air plane constructors at Kitty Hawk made a plane work?


    English wheel?


    Or fabric. Once you've gotten the right shape, you can make a hard formed buck, and trial fit the parts.

    A scratch built Fox will always have value, so you’re on the right page.

  14. #214

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    What an over the top build!

    If I were building this on a budget I'd throw a Clevor (Cleveland head) 351W based stroker at it with the transaxle for a Pantara to get it going.

    There re are some other combos worth exploring too. 500 AWD V6 done with with a huge power adder? Another trans option that might hold the power without breaking the bank is a beefed up SHO transaxle. Adapter plate would be needed for some of the most desireable motors.

    BTW Personally I think I would have went after a Cobra IRS and brake parts off the Ford shelf. I don't feel like you can take parts off of a corvette and call it a super car. Many of us have so badly spanked vettes over the years with our foxes.

    Just my thoughts for what it is worth..

  15. #215
    FEP Member brianj's Avatar
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    I've had good luck with a hammer form made from MDF to get the basic shape, welded to a wire frame such as you have partially built in one of the rear quarter pictures you posted.
    1983 Mustang G.T. No-option stripper- I like strippers.
    5.0, GT40P heads, Comp Cams XE270HR-12 on 1.6 rockers, TFI spring kit, Weiand 174 blower, Holley 750 mechanical secondarys, Mishimoto radiator, Edelbrock street performer mechanical pump, BBK shortys, T-5 conversion, 8.8 rear, 3.73 gears, carbon fiber clutches, SS Machine lowers, Maximum Motorsport XL subframes, "B" springs.

  16. #216

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    Good to see things are happening!
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI T-5 (Mustang LWB)
    '17 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  17. #217
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Glad things are still moving along with this project.

    The metal forming and finishing of the rear quarters will definitely take some time and skill. It can be done with some simple tools and different methods depending on what works best. The biggest issue will always be getting the second quarter to match the shape and lines of the first.

    Now if you are willing to consider fiberglass or even carbon fiber, I have the original Gloy Capri quarters and fenders that molds can be made from . . . .

    Although they might still require some modifications to fit your setup. I am not sure if your overall width is a wide as the Trans Am/IMSA cars were. Either way it's still an option.

    Actually looked at the earlier pictures a bit more and the overall widths are probably pretty close just judging from the photos. Either way wouldn't be difficult to make it all work.
    Last edited by wraithracing; 04-19-2017 at 01:40 PM.
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Awaiting Restoration
    1984 SVO Restoration in Progress
    1986 GT Wrecked by PO, but still want to save!

    Current Capris:
    1982 Capri Roller
    1984 Capri Returned to Bubble Back Glory
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts
    1982 Capri RS 5.0 4spd T-tops

  18. #218

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    On the "needing sponsors" front, where are you documenting this work other than here? There are companies and people out there that would help if they can get some attention back for them or their shop. It's an over the top build that a fabrication shop that could use some exposure would get behind. Sponsors or brand-to-brand partners need exposure back for return on investment. Otherwise it's just a charity.

  19. #219
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    I gotta say, mid engine cars have died due to a lack of tire. If "Over The Top " is a badge of honor like when one guy called Tom Britten's bike a "bad bike, dude", then I'd say the builder has got it aced. You cant moderate width on a mid engine platform. I love it, and have always thought its gonna end up over 80 inches. A 60 Galaxie is 81.5 in...just right!

    Yeah, it does look 87 ish inches wide at the back. Our Group C Falcons ran that same 19 x 10 or 12 wheel with 360's at the back, your forced to add that much. 9 inches a side sounds huge, but its not on a race car. Or a road car that matches the racing car for the road concept.


    It's the old TestaRossa/Camry issue...it started off light and petite as the early wide 512 based concept matured from the narrow and lovely 365 BB, then they added 4" to the length to package the 5 liter, alittle more width to cover the hiders, then decided stock TRX's weren't enough to improve ultimate adhesion, and whamo, your 72" wide 6 foot Fazz becomes a 77.9 inch freak. Of course, Lamborghini and Wolfe Racing money pushed Ferrari into that move...335 tires in the Countach S LP400S, and the rumored 5 liter V12.


    So your step wise logic process is like a Toyota Camry or Avalone process...gets cut width wise to fit the market, then a longer wheel base, then a bench seat, and its gone from a 66.9" wide four door Fox Mustang to a Fox LTD size car in two rack stretching sessions.

    Foxes should be narrow and light, but everything creeps up on you with mid-engine cars. That's just how it is. It's like adding an extra couple of doors to an Explorer...the Sport Trac is light, lithe and small, the 4 door is overly elongated, and then, along came the blQQdy SUV flares.

    Lamborghini again did the outsourcing, and BMW decided to keep the M1 narrow, and despite the inherent stability and poise of the car, it killed the concept as a competition car until they flared the guards.The designer got a defrock by the BMW board and left in disgust.

    There is little doubt the failure of the 72" wide Series III Ferrari 512 BB LM was due to its center of gravity from its non ZF trans, and its lack of width to create adhesion. You can always make a car slicker if your frontal area goes up.

    66 911 Porsche was 66.9 " wide, and the turbo flares took it out to 70.1", or 72.44" as a 959. 5-1/2 inches. Every bit of it was for handling.


    Vector W8, 76 ", Saleen S7, 78".


    BMW M1 71.8"

    Best in terms of width was the car that begat the Giocattolo. It is an AlfaSud Sprint, formerly front drive, ending up as a hybridized DeTomaso Pantera with GT40 gearbox. It had a 160 hp GT-V V6, then became the Holden Commodore 304 Group A V8 engined Giocattolo. A brilliant 100% Alfa Romeo design that wasn't supported so there now very rare.
    They found the prototype recently....

    http://www.sprint6c.com/gallery



    Width was stock, just 1,6101,620 mm (6364 in), the Giocattolo Group B considerably wider, about 70" wide IIRC...same Posche 930 Turbo/ Carrea Turbo idea, all of it for safety, grip, and security.

    Ans space for a twin turbo charged Tuned Port EFI 4.4" bore spacing, 8.9" deck GM Holden V8 makinh 725 rwhp with just 15 pounds of boost, with over 856 rwhp above 15 pounds, probaly an easy 1100 flywheel hp.




    Sooo, what your doing is what every good mid engine/rear engine car retro fitter does...

    SEE THIS CLIP

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-RBwcbWs-k

    Lookes like you've moved to a Ruf 911 style integrated roll cage, and you can play with safety with all the ridity retained.

    http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...-cage-irc.html

  20. #220
    Mike1157
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4eyedgirlsdoitbetter View Post
    Updates for any interested parties, pushrod rear suspension is done. Working on body again, someone please help!!!!!! I am not a English wheel body and fender guy!Name:  426.jpg
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    If this was my car,...and I had that quarter to try and blend in, I'd get rid of the steel skeleton, and do like the do when concept cars are in a crush to get done for a show.

    There is/are foam panels out there that you can glue onto the body that are flexible and will follow the existing body. Once the first block is glued to the body, subsequent blocks can be glued to the base. Once you have enough material built up, you can use all kinds of nifty things like electric carving knifes to get it initially shaped, then rasps/body files/cheese graters to get it close to how you need to to be. If you want to change part of the profile, glue another block on top and cut it back down.
    Once you get the shape roughed to a point where you can finish it, hand sanding blocks w/ 80 grit will cut through that stuff like you'd expect it would.
    Once finished, these guys will cover that final shape w/ some sort of aluminum foil backer, as fiberglass applied directly to the foam will eat into it. (and it'll stick,....which would be undesirable). Layer the fiberglass 3-4 times, and let that junk dry. Once dry, break it off of the foil lined foam, and remove the foam from the body.

    What you'll have from there is a fiberglass quarter that fits the car perfectly. Sure it'll still have to be bonded onto the body, and yes, it'll probably crack where it's bonded. But It'll be swoopy, it'll flow, and and it'll look like it belongs on the car.

    Maybe you'll be able to figure out how to bolt the things on like the lower side skirts are, and it'll look like a body kit. At least you won't have to worry about cracking. The good thing about fiberglass, Is that it's moldable,...You can make it follow a contour that steel will not (unless you work for Rolls Royce, and have an English wheel, and have been doing that for about 30 years). It's easy to fix, (considering you'll have so much time invested in building it in the first place)
    The bad thing about fiberglass, is it's expensive,...It's a mess,.....and well.....it's glass. Itchy, scratchy, dusty, stinky.

    But in kit cars, and kit planes they do this stuff all the time. Here,...I've provided a link.
    http://www.rqriley.com/frp-foam.htm

  21. #221
    FEP Senior Member edman1000's Avatar
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    Hey Mike may be onto something ^.... I remember reading this article where this guy made the car out of expanding foam. Dont really know how it's held up but I imagine with the right reinforcements in the right places, It could'nt be too bad... Here's the link: http://justsomething.co/old-junk-car/
    - Ed

    '85 Capri RS - "1BADMERC" -'00 GT40P motor & heads, Edelbrock RPM/Holley 650, E303 cam, full length BBK ceramics,5spd/flowmaster 2-chambers/373's
    5 Lug conversion, cobra discs on all four corners, 1" drop

    My cowl hood thread:

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread.php?t=131334

  22. #222
    FEP Member 86MustangGtRob's Avatar
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    Any updates on your build? I have been following it, but never posted until now. I think the work you have done so far is incredible

  23. #223

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    An incredible build. I am inspired!

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