Opinions on rooftop TV antennas needed.

[mmb617]

If there is one thing I've learned over the years it's that on just about any topic there will be some FEP members with expertise. So I'm asking for some advice on a future purchase.

I've made up my mind to get rid of our extremely expensive cable service for the TV and landline phone. I only want to keep the high speed internet service, which will cut my bill by about $125 per month. We have all these premium TV channels and never watch them. When we do watch TV it's usually netflix or one of the major networks. So I feel a rooftop antenna would be the ticket for our TV viewing.

Problem is that after doing some research I still don't know what is the best way to go. I'd always pictured a TV antenna as looking something like this:



But now I see a lot of them that look more like this:



The second type seems to be a lot cheaper, but is it as good, or maybe even better?

I take it the first type is omni-directional and doesn't rotate while the second type is uni-directional and does rotate. From what I read so far a uni-directional type is better at pulling in weak signals, but the construction of them is largely plastic, so I have to wonder if they'd hold up through the winter.

Anybody with thoughts on which way to go, or even experiences with a particular type and brand that works well?

Thanks in advance!

[gr79]

Some good info and signal map:
http://www.antennaweb.org/

I use a Phillips indoor/outdoor antenna indoors with amp and good cables.
Am close to stations so signal is fine. Never 100% signal.
Passing cars sometimes mess up the signal.
Picks up more when outside, but is directional.
A rotor would fine tune signal strength.
Air digital is too sensitive to position and storms. Rain, snow.
Just when you need (storm updates) it blacks out.
Bad tech in this day and age. Thanx to govt again.

No one would buy a new 1200.00 tv every year.
But add up monthly bills for pay tv and that is what is spent. 100.00 x 12.
Direct TV was 12.00/mo when i first got it. It is long gone.
ATT has their heads up their you know what sending me ads for Uverse bundles.
Paying for info-mercials, reality shows, reruns, bleak content? Na.

Not a big TV watcher anyway.

[grabbergreen84]

I'm guessing you want a more modern antenna which is optimized for the DTV radio frequency spectrum. The old analog TVs used a bunch of RF bandwidth which has now been allocated for other uses.
We had an old-school one, like in the top picture, back in the '60s-'70s, and it had a rotator. Heh, we also had a UHF converter for the one TV...

[JTurbo]

Antennas don't care if the signal is analog or HDTV. The bandwidth of the TV channels will continue to shrink, but it's not that big of a deal....

First, check to see if you can receive signals at your house using: http://transition.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/dtvmaps/

Just use your zip code. As long as you have signals in the green or yellow, you should be able to pick them up at your house.

Then make your own antenna for less than $10. I made a double loop antenna and mounted it in the attic (no issues with weather, lightning, or grounding). I also bought a high quality pre amp and mounted it right at the antenna. I have a lot of cable loss between (~150-200 feet) the antenna and the 3 TV's that are being fed in my house.

Works great!

[JTurbo]

Here is more info on the antenna I made:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/distribu...ntennas/212256

And a picture of the antenna.


It's basically a single piece of copper wire (10, 12, 14 gauge, doesn't really matter). It about the diameter of a paint can. Formed into a figure 8 and attached to a scrap piece of plastic conduit (has to be non-metallic) with zip ties. Use a ballum (the black part) to convert the antenna's received signal to the common F connector and then to an preamp.

Off-air DTV signals are by far the nicest you can get. Cable and satellite companies introduce distortion via signal compression that degrades the overall picture quality. If you've ever seen a true 1080 over-the-air signal on a TV, you'll never want to watch anything else again.

Let me know if you have any questions.

[Mustang-junky]

Good stuff here. I have been thinking of getting rid of cable for a while now.

Jess

[mmb617]

Some good info and signal map:
http://www.antennaweb.org/

Air digital is too sensitive to position and storms. Rain, snow.

Do weather conditions have a significant effect on signal strength? I know my neighbor has satellite TV and he complains about how often he loses signal when the weather's bad. Would it be pretty much the same for an antenna?

According to that signal map I can get a strong signal for CBS and ABC, a weak signal for NBC, and no signal for FOX, which doesn't sound too promising. If I could get all four major networks that would be good enough, but it looks like that could be a problem.

I'm guessing you want a more modern antenna which is optimized for the DTV radio frequency spectrum. The old analog TVs used a bunch of RF bandwidth which has now been allocated for other uses.
We had an old-school one, like in the top picture, back in the '60s-'70s, and it had a rotator. Heh, we also had a UHF converter for the one TV...

Yes, I'm looking of something that does the best job of pulling in the digital signals for a modern TV. Our main TV is a smart HD TV and it has a great picture with the cable. It's my understanding that the HD picture will be just as good with over the air signals, correct?

First, check to see if you can receive signals at your house using: http://transition.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/dtvmaps/

Just use your zip code. As long as you have signals in the green or yellow, you should be able to pick them up at your house.

Then make your own antenna for less than $10. I made a double loop antenna and mounted it in the attic (no issues with weather, lightning, or grounding). I also bought a high quality pre amp and mounted it right at the antenna. I have a lot of cable loss between (~150-200 feet) the antenna and the 3 TV's that are being fed in my house.

Works great!

First off let me thank you for the idea of making my own antenna. Since it would cost next to nothing to do that, it will be the first thing I try. I'll hook it up to just one TV with a short cable run to test it so I don't have to invest in a pre-amp until I know there's a chance this will do the trick.

According to the signal map from the link you provided I can get only two stations, ABC and CBS, but FOX is listed as a sub-channel of the ABC channel. What does that mean? Could I get FOX or not?

I'm going to build my own antenna and try it this weekend. I'll let you know how it works out.

Off-air DTV signals are by far the nicest you can get. Cable and satellite companies introduce distortion via signal compression that degrades the overall picture quality. If you've ever seen a true 1080 over-the-air signal on a TV, you'll never want to watch anything else again.

If I could just match the picture quality we have now from the cable I'd be more than satisfied. It's hard to imagine how it could be any better. Us old farts just entered the modern age of TV about 2 years ago when we bought a 47" HD smart TV. We'd been using an old 32" CRT TV and the HD picture was so good it was jaw dropping. Now we're spoiled and can't stand to watch the few channels that aren't broadcast in HD.

As mentioned we don't need a huge selection of channels, but would really like to get the 4 major networks. If that's not possible I'm still ditching the TV and phone part of our cable as the price is just way too high. With TV, phone and internet we are paying $188/month now and it's slated to go up another $20 in November. I can put that money to a lot better use elsewhere.



Getting back to the original question. Can anyone tell me which of the two types of antenna in my original post would be better? Where I live I'm pretty much surrounded by mountains, and although they aren't real high, I take it they are limiting my access to signals to those transmitted by the local towers. I think the signals are line of sight, so maybe no antenna is going to get any more. If that's the case I might as well just get a cheap one that will get those local signals. Maybe I don't even need a rooftop location if it's not going to pull in anymore stations than an indoor one will.

[plumkrazy]

I too have been thinking about, so watching for more info

[StangerGT]

I hooked up a computer to my television and watch tv over the internet. There are a ton of sites that stream television shows for free. Whats nice is that I can watch what I want when I want.

[JTurbo]

Do weather conditions have a significant effect on signal strength? I know my neighbor has satellite TV and he complains about how often he loses signal when the weather's bad. Would it be pretty much the same for an antenna?

No, DTH satellite operates on a much higher frequency (and longer path since the signal comes from outer space). So Satellite is affected by weather (and snow on your dish, ask me how I know). Broadcast signals in you area are all UHF so no issues with weather. However, depending on how the path is between your antenna and the broadcast tower(s), trees can cause interference on windy days....

Yes, I'm looking of something that does the best job of pulling in the digital signals for a modern TV. Our main TV is a smart HD TV and it has a great picture with the cable. It's my understanding that the HD picture will be just as good with over the air signals, correct?

Correct with one simple clarification. Not all stations broadcast 1080i. Some broadcast their HD in 720p, which is still really good....

According to the signal map from the link you provided I can get only two stations, ABC and CBS, but FOX is listed as a sub-channel of the ABC channel. What does that mean? Could I get FOX or not?

Yes, you will get FOX. Broadcasters can have 1 or more "programs" simultaneously in their broadcast signal. All through the magic of digital TV and a technology known as compression. The main broadcast program is usually indicated by a ".1". Subchannels follow with ".2, .3, etc". When you hook the antenna to the TV and preform a scan for off-air channels, it will automatically detect the main and subchannels for each broadcaster. Using "Altoona PA" in the FCC search, here are your local broadcast channels:

WTAJ is your CBS affiliate, 1080i
WATM is your ABC affiliate, 720p. They also have on the same signal FOX, 720p as well as a movie channel (ThisTV) in 480i
WKBS is Christian TV, 480i
WPSU is your PBS affiliate with the main signal in 1080i plus 2 subchannels (Create and World) both in 480i
The hardest signal to receive will be WJAC, which is NBC in 1080i and MeTV (classic TV shows) in 480i

Getting back to the original question. Can anyone tell me which of the two types of antenna in my original post would be better? Where I live I'm pretty much surrounded by mountains, and although they aren't real high, I take it they are limiting my access to signals to those transmitted by the local towers. I think the signals are line of sight, so maybe no antenna is going to get any more. If that's the case I might as well just get a cheap one that will get those local signals. Maybe I don't even need a rooftop location if it's not going to pull in anymore stations than an indoor one will.

Either will work just fine. If you are planning on a roof top install (probably best based on the fact the you have 2 signals that are weak), you will want to get one with higher gain.

One thing I didn't look at is the location of your house vs. the direction of each of the broadcasters above. If they all are located in a similar direction, there will be no need to rotate the antenna. But if you have towers opposite (ie some to the west and others to the east), will need to be able to rotate the antenna.

For my house, I have broadcast towers east and south. So fixed my antenna looking towards the SE to be able to get both....

Let me know if you have any questions.

JT

[JTurbo]

Another option is to look at; Antennas Direct (link to UHF antennas shown since you don't have any VHF in your immediate area):
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/uhf.html

Here is something form Antennas Direct (similar to what I built, pictured above):
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store...na-Bundle.html

[grabbergreen84]

Yes, I'm looking of something that does the best job of pulling in the digital signals for a modern TV. Our main TV is a smart HD TV and it has a great picture with the cable. It's my understanding that the HD picture will be just as good with over the air signals, correct?

Well, the picture from signals captured by your antenna will actually be better than what is piped in by the cable. JTurbo explained it above.
If you end up getting really into this, you can find out the exact frequencies at which your channels broadcast, and you can construct an antenna which is tuned to maximize reception of those frequencies.

Or better yet, you can even build multiple antennas, each optimized for each channel you wish to receive! But you will need a way to switch between them. Radio $hack $ell$ (or at least once sold) remote-controlled A-B switches, but I would shop on the net, at places like MCM Electronics. Tuning an antenna to a frequency has to do with matching the length of the antenna to the length of the RF waves which carry the programming you wish to receive. (Frequency is a product of wavelength or vice-versa.) The one design which I remember is called a Yagi, or something like that.

My advice/vote is for you to build your own, and not buy one. I'll bet that a google search will produce a mind-boggling amount of information about building antennas for whatever device/RF wavelength.

I've always loved seeing what far-away signals I could pull in with a radio - which is called DX'ing...

[grabbergreen84]

You can also look at an RF signal as similar to a soundwave. The lower frequency signals such as shortwave radio, can be received from farther away, and will transmit/resonate through a lot of barriers - just like the noise from a car with loud bass.
Higher frequencies are more limited to line-of-sight constraints, and they bounce and dart around better than lower frequencies, as I understand it. This is why devices like cell phones and cordless phones are so easily disrupted by barriers like distance, terrain, and buildings.
So, as you get away from the car with the loud annoying music, you'll notice that the treble is the easiest part of the noise to escape, be it through moving away from the noise or going inside a building, while it will take considerably more distance or shielding to escape that bass.
And I guess these characteristics are a product of the length of the waves.

The problem with multiple antennas is scanning for channels. Every digital TV I've ever messed with, gave me "one shot" to scan for all channels. That is to say that if I missed one, I couldn't save the ones I'd already stored - I'd have to move the antenna and scan again, which might mean picking up the one I'd missed - but then not picking up one which I had picked up before. Hopefully the newer TVs will let you do multiple scans without erasing what you've already picked up and stored, or maybe they'll let you enter it manually.

[JTurbo]

If you end up getting really into this, you can find out the exact frequencies at which your channels broadcast, and you can construct an antenna which is tuned to maximize reception of those frequencies.

His RF channels go from 15 to 46 if you include the Christian TV network. Otherwise it's 15 to 34. So the antenna would need to be tuned to the center of the band (or possibly to the worst reception channel, which is 34 in his case). I optimized my double loop for the channels in my area when I made the antenna a few years back. There are formulas on the net. But a paint can sized loop is close enough for a starting point....

The problem with multiple antennas is scanning for channels. Every digital TV I've ever messed with, gave me "one shot" to scan for all channels. That is to say that if I missed one, I couldn't save the ones I'd already stored - I'd have to move the antenna and scan again, which might mean picking up the one I'd missed - but then not picking up one which I had picked up before. Hopefully the newer TVs will let you do multiple scans without erasing what you've already picked up and stored, or maybe they'll let you enter it manually.

I've only dealt with a few TV's, but what you describe is correct. One scan to find all the available channels in your region. Then you can go in and delete / remove unwanted channels (such as spanish language channels for me). But you can not add to a previous scan with a new scan....

[Ray Dog]

Mike, we have your second option. We get a better signal than the cable we are ditching as I type.
The satellite guy is just about done with the install.
The control is about 3 in square, the rotor is powered through the cable.
It's also our backup tv during power outage and when we have pissing matches with local stations and cable.
We just switch to the HD antenna and wait it out.
I did have to extend the mast when a dormer's shadow blocked it on a certain channel.
You don't get in the way of Mama Dog and her NCIS.

[IDMooseMan]

We've been watching antenna-TV for many years using rabbit-ears. We switched over to an outdoor antenna (medium directional) a few years ago. Finally bought a Smart HDTV a little over a year ago. I cannot believe the difference in picture quality. It's amazing.

I would've tried Joe's antenna build first. I found an antenna installer that was running a special. The house already had the cabling setup, so it was an "easy" install for him. He installed an antenna (like the first picture), correctly routed the interior cables (thanks for screwing up that installation DishTV), and ran some "extra" cable to my travel trailer. I can watch TV in the trailer using the house antenna to pick up the signals.

I'm glad I switched to an outside antenna. Best $125 I ever spent. I receive 40 channels. This includes channels I don't watch, like Spanish-language, shopping, religion, etc. After excluding those channels, there are 19 channels that we can watch, PLUS Netflix.

[mmb617]

Wow, so much helpful information here! I knew I could count on my FEP friends to set me straight on this.

There are so many I want to respond to that if I multi-quote I'll go over the character limit so I'll take them one at a time.

I hooked up a computer to my television and watch tv over the internet. There are a ton of sites that stream television shows for free. Whats nice is that I can watch what I want when I want.

I had already planned to hook my TV to the laptop as it has an HDMI output and the TV has 4 HDMI inputs. I was mainly thinking of youtube and netflix, but I did know that some network TV is also available. I did a test run and it looks like even ESPN and ESPN2 can be streamed live all but about a 10 second delay, which surprised and delighted me at the same time.

Although the smart TV I have can technically access youtube and the internet without the computer, it's slow and awkward and the interface is different from what I'm already used to on the computer so this seemed like the easiest way to go.

If I could access the 4 major networks this way I wouldn't need an antenna at all. The wife might see it differently though as she wants to just turn on the TV and not have to go through the computer.

[mmb617]

Yes, you will get FOX. Broadcasters can have 1 or more "programs" simultaneously in their broadcast signal. All through the magic of digital TV and a technology known as compression. The main broadcast program is usually indicated by a ".1". Subchannels follow with ".2, .3, etc". When you hook the antenna to the TV and preform a scan for off-air channels, it will automatically detect the main and subchannels for each broadcaster. Using "Altoona PA" in the FCC search, here are your local broadcast channels:

WTAJ is your CBS affiliate, 1080i
WATM is your ABC affiliate, 720p. They also have on the same signal FOX, 720p as well as a movie channel (ThisTV) in 480i
WKBS is Christian TV, 480i
WPSU is your PBS affiliate with the main signal in 1080i plus 2 subchannels (Create and World) both in 480i
The hardest signal to receive will be WJAC, which is NBC in 1080i and MeTV (classic TV shows) in 480i

Either will work just fine. If you are planning on a roof top install (probably best based on the fact the you have 2 signals that are weak), you will want to get one with higher gain.

One thing I didn't look at is the location of your house vs. the direction of each of the broadcasters above. If they all are located in a similar direction, there will be no need to rotate the antenna. But if you have towers opposite (ie some to the west and others to the east), will need to be able to rotate the antenna.

For my house, I have broadcast towers east and south. So fixed my antenna looking towards the SE to be able to get both....

Let me know if you have any questions.

JT

If I can get FOX as the subchannel then I have a strong signal for FOX, CBS, and ABC and all of them are NNW @ 325*. The NBC station which has a weak signal isn't too far out of line with the others as it's W @262*.

I really don't care if I can't get anymore than these major networks. And if I can get the other three but not NBC with a simple homemade antenna I could live with that.

The first thing I'm going to do is build a double loop antenna like you showed and see what happens. I already have everything I need to build it on hand except the matching transformer so I have nothing to lose. I can't find that pesky little dongle in stock locally so I just ordered one online, it'll be here before next weekend. I will let you know how this works out. I figure if I just hook it to one TV with a real short cable run I should be able to determine if it will do the job before I buy a preamp. Does that make sense?

I can't thank you enough for lending our expertise to this project!

[mmb617]

My advice/vote is for you to build your own, and not buy one. I'll bet that a google search will produce a mind-boggling amount of information about building antennas for whatever device/RF wavelength.

This idea has two things going for it.

1. Much like with my car I'll have the satisfaction of saying I built it myself.

2. I'm cheap!

[mmb617]

The problem with multiple antennas is scanning for channels. Every digital TV I've ever messed with, gave me "one shot" to scan for all channels. That is to say that if I missed one, I couldn't save the ones I'd already stored - I'd have to move the antenna and scan again, which might mean picking up the one I'd missed - but then not picking up one which I had picked up before. Hopefully the newer TVs will let you do multiple scans without erasing what you've already picked up and stored, or maybe they'll let you enter it manually.

Not sure how that works on the TV we have now, I'd have to look it up. Like cellphones this TV can do everything but wipe your behind, if you know how to work it. There are so many menus, and sub-menus that it's easy to get lost, at least for us old folks.

[mmb617]

Mike, we have your second option. We get a better signal than the cable we are ditching as I type.
The satellite guy is just about done with the install.
The control is about 3 in square, the rotor is powered through the cable.
It's also our backup tv during power outage and when we have pissing matches with local stations and cable.
We just switch to the HD antenna and wait it out.
I did have to extend the mast when a dormer's shadow blocked it on a certain channel.
You don't get in the way of Mama Dog and her NCIS.

So are you using that exact model, the Lava HD 2605? Or just one similar to that type? I ask because if I go the rooftop route I'd like to buy one that someone I know is using and likes. Reading the reviews is nice but not necessarily unbiased. I often wonder how many bad reviews get "lost".

I've already scouted that if I go rooftop I'll want to knock the top off of two pine trees that could interfere. They're both on our property though, so no problem. I don't like them being higher than the roof line anyways.

The only thing I have to be sure mama can watch here is the two afternoon soaps she's watched for years. Fortunately they are both available online, so no sweat on that count.

[mmb617]

We've been watching antenna-TV for many years using rabbit-ears. We switched over to an outdoor antenna (medium directional) a few years ago. Finally bought a Smart HDTV a little over a year ago. I cannot believe the difference in picture quality. It's amazing.

I would've tried Joe's antenna build first. I found an antenna installer that was running a special. The house already had the cabling setup, so it was an "easy" install for him. He installed an antenna (like the first picture), correctly routed the interior cables (thanks for screwing up that installation DishTV), and ran some "extra" cable to my travel trailer. I can watch TV in the trailer using the house antenna to pick up the signals.

I'm glad I switched to an outside antenna. Best $125 I ever spent. I receive 40 channels. This includes channels I don't watch, like Spanish-language, shopping, religion, etc. After excluding those channels, there are 19 channels that we can watch, PLUS Netflix.

When we finally stepped up to a modern TV I was also blown away by the picture quality.

If I go with a rooftop antenna I should be able to tap into the main cable line in the basement which is already run to all four TV's in the house, although our son said he doesn't care if we run a feed to his TV or not as he hasn't watched TV on it for years. He streams everything he watches from his laptop.

The big selling point to me is that what I save in two months on my cable bill would pay for the most high priced antenna setup I've looked at. After that it's all gravy!

[Andfab99]

I got rid of my dish tv this year and went with a DB8 antenna. The set top antennas I have tried have too much interference when cars pass by. I put the DB8 in my attic and have great reception even in storms. Solidsignal.com has a great selection of antennas and accessories.

[gr79]

Another good forum for info:
http://www.highdefforum.com/local-hd...own-brand.html

[Ray Dog]

Mike the Lava HD 2605 is the model we use. We got an antenna without a mast.
We only use it for backup and when the stations and cable have hissy fits.