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  1. #1

    Thumbs up 2.3t carb upgrades?

    hi guys im new to the forum and recently purchased a 1982 mustang 2.3t (yes 1982 its canadian) it has 70,000kms on the clock and has never been winter drivin. its alao manual with a 5 speed and it only cost me 2000$. ive done some research on four eyed pride and other foruns as well and seem to come across the same answer on all ends, that i need to swap to efi, change it for a svo engine or a 5.0. but you see im sentimental about these kind of things, i refuse to remove something as rare as the 2.3t carb engine that was only sold in canada during the 1982 year. so heres the thing I want to upgrade it. is there anyone who has experience with modifying them? could i upgrade the head ti the efi type whike retaining the carburator? is there a way to upgrade the turbo? if so what turbo can be used? what about larger carburators and an aftermarket intake manifold? (from what ive seen non-existsant) but im just looking to make a bit more hp any help would be appreciated.

  2. #2
    FEP Super Member mustangxtreme's Avatar
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    Welcome to FEP. Yes you can modify your 2.3T. If it were me, I'd pull the 2.3t and put it in storage, install a later 2.3T with an aftermarket intake/carb and boost the hell out of it. That way you can still make the claim it's just a carbureted 2.3.
    Dave

    If common sense was common wouldn't it just be sense?

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  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by mustangxtreme View Post
    Welcome to FEP. Yes you can modify your 2.3T. If it were me, I'd pull the 2.3t and put it in storage, install a later 2.3T with an aftermarket intake/carb and boost the hell out of it. That way you can still make the claim it's just a carbureted 2.3.
    thanks for the warm welcome :-) its a really good idea but ive allways been the person to take a less popular engine and kinda make it fast. not conpetitive fast but the kind of fast that makes peoole do a double take and ask WTF?!? idk as crappy as the design was i still want to make it work.

  4. #4
    FEP Power Member Mustang Marty's Avatar
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    Welcome. I was interested in doing the same thing to my coupe when I bought it. It had the same engine and I was looking into boosting the performance without going to EFI. The two biggest issues with these engines are the high compression ratio (limits the amount of boost) and the draw through turbo/carb design. Having all that heat below the carb doesn't do it any favors. I had a Gillis valve on mine when I bought it and while I could double the boost to 9-10 lbs, the car ran out of steam pretty quickly.

    There has been some success converting the engine to blow through using a later model EFI turbo and exhaust manifold and small 4 barrel carb (there is a 4 barrel intake available for the 2.3). Instead of the carb sitting on the turbo, the turbo blows through the top of the carb, similar to have the superchargers and turbos are connected to the modern throttle bodies. The smaller IHI turbo from the 87-88 Tbirds tend to work better with the higher compression engine since they spool faster and produce less boost overall (although they can still provide more than the engine can handle). This was the route I was going until a wrecked Turbocoupe landed in my lap for next to nothing.
    79 Mustang Coupe - Jade Green Metallic - 5.0 5Sp - Purchased 2006
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    01 Mustang - True Blue - 3.8 Auto - Purchased 2001, now daughter's car
    85 ASC - McLaren 5.0 SC - ASC White - 5.0 CFI Auto - Owned 2004 - 2016
    98 Mustang - White - 3.8 5pd - Owned 1998 - 2001
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    84 SVO - Charcoal - 2.3t 5Sp - Owned 1989 -1992
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  5. #5
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Welcome and congrads on a nice deal on that rare version of a car.
    Had to chime in as to what i learned owning a carb turbo car since 1980.

    Also have a stock one, except for upgraded internal parts that have come about over the years.
    Tweaked timing and little things. It will go faster than i will dare to go anymore well over 80+ mph.
    Daily driver. 300,000+ miles. One engine rebuild at 220,000.

    Will always be faster cars. Slower ones too.
    If i personally needed a faster car (and have had them) it would be one with bigger engine that is already fast.

    Left alone it will last quite long with proper maint and parts.
    This engine is fairly sensitive to tune and for sure improper mods.
    It is what it is. Just about maxed out from the factory.

    A few changes can be done while leaving it basic as intended.

    -Cam change. The 'big 2.3 cam' from later SVO, T-Bird. adds +10% hp, tq.
    Some suggest Ranger roller cam/valve train pieces. A Ranger header will fit with mods.
    -No carb change is needed nor recommended due to tuning issues. Keep it and keep it clean.
    -Pistons can be upgraded to skirt coated upon rebuild. Overbore it. Blueprint the engine. ARP bolts.
    -Boost can be turned up a few pounds. This is fooling with durability.
    -Maybe some minor head/intake cleanup by an expert. Motorcraft ign parts and oil filter.
    -A rear gear change to 3.73 if not already there would be ok.
    This engine will make 130-175hp without cutting into it.
    -Small shot of nitrous?
    -Keeping the car lightweight always helps performance.
    -Do not jump or rev it high, quickly, until oil and engine is warmed up.
    -10w30 is enough. These engines have a lower than normal valve stem seal life.
    -Chassis- sub frame and verti bracing. Ford hd rear upper control arms. Ford upgraded lower fronts.
    -Larger alternator than a 40a.

    I enjoy every time the overall drive ability of the car, fuel econ, yes reliability, and turbo sound, more than how fast it will go.
    People at a show appreciate a stock un modded car too.

    Preserving these engines as stock is just not what everyone else wants, but i for one don't care.
    Sorry. Most that have the itch to mod the hell out of one of these has the wrong car and image of it.
    I loved the way the car was on day one and plan to do what i can to keep it that way.

  6. #6

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    wow ive got some good information here, congrats gr79 for such a loyal following and dedication to these rare cars. so a blow through setup, youve got my attention. so lets say i use the svo turbo for a blow through setup. the next thing is what carb do i use exactly and as far as a manifold can i use the 4barrel carb manifold from esslinger?

  7. #7

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    My old '79 Pace Car turbo was modded a bit.

    The engine that came in the car had lost a rod bolt (It had be previously "worked". Poorly, I imagine), so I tossed in a stock 84 SVO longblock I had. I used the Ranger exhaust manifold and the previous owner had wrapped the crossover pipe to the turbo. The exhaust was a 3" DP to a dual 2-1/2" set-up (Previous owner again. My choice is for a single 3" all the way).

    Carb was stock, but rebuilt/cleaned. Intake and turbo were stock. Fueling was from later Fox intank feed pump (Low pressure), so no mechanical FP. Electric rad fan.

    Ignition was stock.

    I added an adjustable boost controller. A very basic in-car adjustment knob. Nothing fancy. I ran the car at 12# of boost.

    My main issue with it was the drivability, as compared to the EFI 2.3T cars I'd driven. It was very laggy, but it was just the nature of the beast. You'd push down the throttle to go, and it would start to accelerate, slowly. Then the turbo would spool up and "BAH-WAHHHH!!" the car would squat and scoot. You had to keep your foot into it pretty heavy to avoid that ON-OFF transition. The EFI 2.3T stuff was not really any less laggy, when stock, just more smooth.

    I never tracked the car, but the guy who bought it from me picked it up and drove it home to Delaware. I hear at some point that it ran a 14.0 in the quarter with the way it was set up.

    Now, as mentioned, this was with the lower-compression SVO engine (8.0:1 vs 9.0:1), but I wouldn't hesitate to run that same configuration on the stock '79 engine. Just would have to be mindful of detonation. The higher static comp would keep the car a bit more peppy off-boost. I took that original engine that was in the car and put it back together and beat the ever-loving snot out of it for years at a 9.0: compression and anywhere from 16-21# of boost (EFIed, intercooled and non-intercooled). It did eventually die, but again, I was not treating it nice. 11-12# of boost wouldn't scare me on a stock 2.3T carbed engine.

    The only issue with the carbed stuff, is some of the parts are getting hard to find, so you may have to get creative. The oring seals on the intake, for example. When I sourced them from the dealer in '98, I bought one of the last 4 sets in the country. I'm sure aftermarket/DIY solutions exist these days, however.
    83 TC "Clone"

  8. #8
    FEP Power Member Mustang Marty's Avatar
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    For an intake, Offenhauser was one of the companies the made them. Here is a new one on eBay. They also make a two barrel that has the Holley flange

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Offenhauser-...0531bd&vxp=mtr

    It is designed for the early oval port heads that were used on the 2.3 until 1982. If you want to use the later D port heads, then either the head needs to be modified or a lower EFI intake with a carb adapater will need to be used.

    A Holley 390 CFM is the reccomended setup. The Holley two barrel 350 CFM has been used succesfully, but there is more information about modding and tuning the 4bbl for turbo applications than the 2bbl. You want are nitrophyl floats installed in either case as the brass floats will collapse under boost. To top it off you will need a carb hat. Vortech makes a good one for their superchargers. http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/...n.php?pvk=4581. These are supposed to flow better and cause less turbulence than the 90 degree elbows.


    If you do decide to make these mods to your car, for the love of god, keep all the parts you take off. Nearly all of the unique parts for the engine (such as intake, turbo, ignition, and vacuum systems) have not been available for decades. If you ever want to restore the car the only source of parts will be what you have kept from it. Even if you don't plan on restoring the car, the parts could help out someone who is.
    79 Mustang Coupe - Jade Green Metallic - 5.0 5Sp - Purchased 2006
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    01 Mustang - True Blue - 3.8 Auto - Purchased 2001, now daughter's car
    85 ASC - McLaren 5.0 SC - ASC White - 5.0 CFI Auto - Owned 2004 - 2016
    98 Mustang - White - 3.8 5pd - Owned 1998 - 2001
    84 Mustang SSP - White - 5.0 5sp - Owned 1993 - 1998
    84 SVO - Charcoal - 2.3t 5Sp - Owned 1989 -1992
    79 Mustang Ghia - 5.0 Auto - Owned 1981 - 1986
    68 Mustang Coupe - 302 Auto - Owned 1980 - 1981

  9. #9
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    There was one Holley carb that i would have liked to try out mentioned in above post.
    Was not aware of it at the time. Now, long out of production.
    Holley model 2305 staged 2 bbl, like the 5200 carb, only larger.
    Based on 2300 series. List 0-80120 350 cfm and 0-80095 500 cfm.

    The Helm Ford shop manuals are a good accurate, if not the only, source of info for these cars.
    Without the option of an intercooler, added boost is more touchy of a subject.
    Octane, head gasket limit.

    Really do not notice any real lag or bog. Boost can start under 2000 rpm under certain conditions.
    Have removed the carb choke flaps. Car never started any better with a choke setup.

  10. #10

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    I have a 0-80120 and I couldn't get the huge stumble out of it no matter what I tried. Maybe that is why they are long out of production.

  11. #11
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Yah carb calibration is very time consuming. On top of finely tuning the engine.
    Jets, pump shot, bleeds, revised engine vacuum connection locations.

    Getting correct A/F ratios thru the power band, boosted and not, by mechanical means.

    On a turbo engine, would start with some jets close to oem and work from there.
    On that Holley 5200 reman i got one time, the jets were way too small.
    Car ran flat and was a dog.
    Jets were around number 225. Stock 5200 turbo is 259-283.
    Thing is Holley and Weber use a different jet size numbering system.
    Books say to drill size match the holes if no other way.

    Then the situation with incorrect vac connections. Not much data to go from.
    Its a guess, hit or miss.
    Have went from no idle, bog, to nice mileage with power playing with vac connections.

    Or a aftermarket throttle body type kit instead of carb.
    Electronic fuel metering. 2.3 turbo EFI popular because this is done already.

  12. #12
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Its very important to know the answer is Yes to performance upgrades to the 2.3 Carb Turbo A code.

    See http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...68#post1650568

    The jetting issues for the Holley Weber 5200 series carb are simple...the interchange is as follows. Its a handed, reverse image 32/36 Weber carb, so uses the European jets, not the Holley 1, 2 and 4 bbl items

    http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.p...511834#p511834

    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy
    Quote Originally Posted by powerband
    On a fairly high CR 170, I used a generic 4cyl 5200 with all ranges of jetting with little improvement from the 1bbl until finding a 2800 V6 application H/W 5200 version. On the 170 six it improved performance and mileage dramatically . I can't account for differences even swapping same jetting between carb bodies ... But as mentioned it is easy and fun to get the secondaries workin'.

    That's because the emulsion tube is different. Remember, the 32/36 saw duty on 78 to 171 cube Ford engines from the 87 hp 1.6 liter SOHC Pinto engine found in European Cortinas, Capris and Sierras, to the US 2600 and 2800 Cologne V6's in the Capri, Bronco II, Areostar. I think the ill fated 1978 to 1980 1600 Kent engined Fiesta ran one for the US market. Both the Weber and Holley Webers use F2 to F78 trim emulsion #61440 tubes, the F50 primary, F6 sec for water or electric choke, F50/F50 for earlier manual choke , but some used for the 171 cube/2800 cc Cologne V6 had F2's in the secondary, and there are other differences to air bleeds. Emission gear forced Ford to adopt different jetting depending if it was Austria, Australia, California or Illonis :wink: . The numbers are just list numbers, but generally, the higher the number, the less the emulsification, the smaller the holes. Low numbers suit bigger engines, generally. Here are the F1 to F20's,with an F8 below. The ink pictures are for #61450 series carbs, but you get the general idea.

    http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4101/...b044c46a_z.jpg

    http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4098/...1079fa40_z.jpg

    From swatson454 on speed talk, there are pictures of the normal #61440 series F50, then an F6, an F7, and then a custom moded F7 item. Lastly, some common 32/36 Emulsion tubes from uptillnow


    Easy replacements that will fit the 32/36 are F3, 5, 6, 7, 24, 25, 26, 50, 66 and 78. F2's are not commonly available but have been used in 2.8 2-bbl's , while F6's and F66's are other common replacements.

    Some Holley Weber 5200 and Weber 32/36 carbs have only a primary idle system, while others have both primary and secondary idle system. These 3 things totally change the make up of any 32/36 or 5200 carb. Every year, there were major changes to carb calibration, and running changes as well. Always without notice...




    Quote Originally Posted by powerband
    Main Jet Conversions
    Green Jets Brass Jets Green Jets Brass Jets
    124-227 22R-103-130 124-325 22R-103-150
    124-239 22R-103-132 124-346 22R-103-155
    124-243 22R-103-133 124-357 22R-103-157
    124-255 22R-103-135 124-374 22R-103-160
    124-263 22R-103-137 124-404 22R-103-165
    124-275 22R-103-140 124-423 22R-103-170
    124-283 22R-103-142 124-455 22R-103-175
    124-299 22R-103-145 124-477 22R-103-180
    124-311 22R-103-147 124-524 22R-103-185
    The above are close limit jets

    Or the chart that shows all them plotted. Disregards the units. The chart should read 150 microns is 1.5 mm



    And specifically:The earlier standard jet sizes for Holley Webers are:-

    103 cc/min=105 microns, or 41.34 thou
    128 cc/min=110 microns, or 43.31 thou
    152 cc/min=115 microns, or 45.28 thou
    178 cc/min=120 microns, or 47.24 thou
    201 cc/min=125 microns, or 49.21 thou
    225 cc/min=130 microns, or 51.18 thou
    251 cc/min=135 microns, or 53.15 thou
    275 cc/min=140 microns, or 55.12 thou
    298 cc/min=145 microns, or 57.09 thou
    325 cc/min=150 microns, or 59.06 thou
    346 cc/min=155 microns, or 61.02 thou
    375 cc/min=160 microns, or 62.99 thou
    400 cc/min=165 microns, or 64.96 thou
    425 cc/min=170 microns, or 66.93 thou
    450 cc/min=175 microns, or 68.90 thou
    475 cc/min=180 microns, or 70.87 thou
    525 cc/min=185 microns, or 72.83 thou
    Last edited by xctasy; 03-21-2017 at 06:26 PM. Reason: The chart should read 150 microns is 1.5 mm

  13. #13
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Redrilling isn't the favored option. There are lots of Holley Weber jets around, and here is powerbands cover off of the three different types of coding I alludd to above. Its a great help.

    Quote Originally Posted by powerband
    Where did you get a 477 jet?
    Green Jets Brass Jets
    124-477 22R-103-180

    From unverified source:::

    Holley 5200 Jets:

    Contrary to popular belief standard Holley jets do NOT fit the Holley 5200 because it is based off of the weber 32/36. The first couple of years the Holley 5200 was made jets for these carburetors where made in the U.S. and stamped with a diameter for the size of the jet. These jets where numbered with the 22R-103-xxx numbers shown in the table below where the xxx would be the diameter of the jet opening in millimeters. Only the last 3 numbers are stamped on the jet so a 157 size jet would have a 1.57 mm hole. These older jets are supposidly brass colored and newer jets where suppose to have a green coating.

    In 1975 jets started to be labeled according to the flow of the jet. This means that the exact size no longer was of concern. Each jet is individually flowed at a constant vacuum of 50 centimeters (probably using water). This would mean that two jets of the same size are now gauranteed to flow the same where as before one could flow more than the other. These jets are suppose to be colored green an the number dictates its flow so a 423 jet would flow 423 cc of fluid at a constant pressure drop of 50 centimeters.

    Carburetor jets should not be drilled or modified in any way as shape affects flow as well as the opening size. Therefor you cannot know how much fuel and how effective a jet delivers fuel after it has been modified unless you test it on a flow stand.

    Below is a chart of the new and old Holley 5200 jets according to flow thus a 124-311 green jet would have close to the same flow as a 22R-103-147 jet. Note that not all available jets may be listed as they might not flow an equivlant volume between old and new jets.

    Main Jet Conversions
    Green Jets Brass Jets Green Jets Brass Jets
    124-227 22R-103-130 124-325 22R-103-150
    124-239 22R-103-132 124-346 22R-103-155
    124-243 22R-103-133 124-357 22R-103-157
    124-255 22R-103-135 124-374 22R-103-160
    124-263 22R-103-137 124-404 22R-103-165
    124-275 22R-103-140 124-423 22R-103-170
    124-283 22R-103-142 124-455 22R-103-175
    124-299 22R-103-145 124-477 22R-103-180
    124-311 22R-103-147 124-524 22R-103-185
    The three types rearranged.

    As is said, Stock 5200 turbo is 259-283.

    The Common Turbo Close Limit Green jet is a later addition to the US Holley Weber inventory, and isn't included because I have no data for it



    Stock 5200 turbo is 259-283, but 259 cc/minute, which should be a 136 micron jet, is not listed

  14. #14
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Smile woa-oh, half way there?

    Almost 5 years since my post #9 about wanting a 2305/80120 Holley since the 80's.
    Figure i had something to add to the thread.
    Did not give up finding one of those carbs. Finally found a good one in 2018.
    Determined to make it work, no un-reversible mods or hacks to anything, engine parts, carb, hood. Did it.
    Durability, reliability, low cost, stock appearing, easy to change back to the 5200, were top priorities.

    Had to measure clearances 100x under hood, select and mod a low profile adapter spacer, fuel fitting, etc. Tight fit, but came out fine.
    On the 2.3 draw thru turbo manifolds, carbs sit higher and closer to the v/c than on a 2.3 n/a intake.
    Finally did get to actually check the fit last week. Dropped right in perfectly. Everything clears.
    Was bolted completely in ready to run config. Did not run engine. Had duct tape over the manifold holes.
    Sanded throttle linkage ball with emery cloth smaller from .270" to .250 dia.
    Need to work on hood clearance for the air cleaner. Need 1" more or so. Hood shuts completely with no air cleaner on carb.
    Cut off the 3/4" air cleaner base riser or maybe a offset drop base would work.
    Determined to use the bigger carb. Even if it means changing to a n/a manifold someday.
    The 5200 works fine, but spare correct turbo ready 5200's have been a little hard to find.
    No info out there on this combo. Holley 2305 on a draw thru 2.3 turbo engine. Someone has to do it. Me.

    Next i believe the power valve has to be boost referenced like the stock 5200 turbo carb is. Found info on the mod, even on the Holley site.
    May have to rejet, no big deal. One step larger jets than the 270-280 cfm 5200 has, going to a 350 cfm carb. Has annular boosters.
    Stock 5200 has .054 primary, .055 secondary jets, 8.5 pv. 2305 currently has .054 primary, giant .079 secondary, 6.5 pv.
    May try as is, but think can do better with pv boost ref mod, smaller .055 secondary jet, 8.5 pv.
    A wide band A/F gauge may be in the cards to be on the safe side dialing it in.
    Name:  carb 2305 trial  fit on car (5).jpg
Views: 135
Size:  104.2 KB

    Followup 7/12/19
    No issues after install 6/27. No redos, wish i would haves, oh ohs, can do this better someday.
    Been driving car with new carb. Runs fine. Starts/restarts quickly every time. Timing still manifold ref.
    Same (city) or better fuel mileage (hiway) and overall power-torque feel. No bucks, flats, bogs, stalls, leaks.
    More sensitive. Needs light throttle pressure off idle to about 1500. Noticeable push at 8.5". +
    Car will cruise, no throttle idle, in 1st gear at 6.5 mph, 10 mph in second.
    Response into boost is quicker. 5200 was more flat responding. Gradual.
    Idle is 19-20 on vac gauge. Driving vac is same as 5200 was. Can stall engine with idle screws.
    Stock hood scoop, no risers, clears air cleaner fine.
    Did mods to carb to boost ref pv, a/c clearance. Same stock calibration carryover (jets, pv) as 5200.
    Can change back to the 5200 carb and drive car in about one hour.
    Time will tell, but reason for change was new carb parts availability. Much better with a 2300 series Holley.
    Last edited by gr79; 07-12-2019 at 01:14 PM.

  15. #15
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?f=...553926#p553926
    Posts 15 & 19 have pictures of two kinds of 2305, the float bowls vary, and its s mech sec 650 to 700 cut down.



    My 54 year old internet aquaintance similarly has a 500 cfm 2305 Holley in album stack 3 of 4

    https://s1292.photobucket.com/user/a...=recent&page=3


    Her gran pappy was Lynne Townsend, former VP of Chrysler in the early 60s.

    The carb is just a latterally sectioned 4bbl 700 Holley, and its holes snd flst spots sre more related to intake than snything else.43 Chris Millers youtube AutoX 79 Stang Notch runs a 2350 carb.

    https://s1215.photobucket.com/user/x...h0003.jpg.html



    For post #15 and #19, see the pictures.

  16. #16

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    neat info - thanks for sharing!

  17. #17
    FEP Supporter svo84's Avatar
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    Welcome. Sounds like a great buy. there are a bunch of good people on the site that can give great advice and direction. I have an 80 coupe turbo car with upgraded EFI turbo swap if I can help let me know.would like to see pictures of your car. Good luck with your project.

  18. #18
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    This is what i used to jet the 2305 the same as the 5200 turbo carb.
    Must be close, Car runs normal. 8.5 pv in both.

    Weber 5200 jets, 2.3 Turbo engine
    259= .053 (a/c P)
    263= .054 (non-a/c P) my 5200 P
    275= .055 (non-a/c S) my 5200 S
    283= .056 (a/c S)

    Holley jets, 2305, 2.3 Turbo engine.
    .053= 122-54
    .054= 122-55 used this one for 2305 P
    .055= 122-56 used this one for 2305 S
    .056= 122-57
    May try a Holley 122-56 in the 2305 primary just to see what it does. Match the P+S.
    2300/2305/7448 venturis/throttle plates are same size P+S, unlike a 5200.

    Quick Fuel brand are numbered differently. Say .056= QF 22-56. 56 is a .056, etc.
    Holley brand is .056= 122-57. 57 is a .056.

    Funny the Holley 2305/R-80120 carb oem jets were different P+S 122-52 and 122-65.
    Dunno what that combo would run like. Was prob for n/a apps, not turbo.
    Would try the combo, but 52 is leaner and do not feel safe going leaner than stock on a turbo engine.
    Turbo 5200= 280 cfm
    2305= 350 cfm.

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