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  1. #26

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    The low-pressure pump in the tank should be sufficient to supply a carb, but you'll still need a regulator,
    and you'll need to alter the fuel pump relay wiring, since that would have been controlled by the ECU.

    The stock wiring may or may not have a ballast resistor bypass jumper you can remove, otherwise if
    there's no ballast in the harness, you'll need to provide one inline with the coil only. The easiest way to
    implement the ballast bypass during start is to use a starter relay with the second post, which was for
    exactly that purpose on the older Fords.

    The carb linkage will not operate your AOD, unless you got one of the fairly rare Motorcraft carbs that
    have the proper TV linkage arm. Otherwise, you'll need a TV cable kit from Lokar, or use some other
    kind of transmission.
    Cheers,
    Jeff Cook

    '85 GT Hatch, 5-speed T-Top, Eibachs, Konis, & ARE 5-Spokes ... '85 GT Vert, CFI/AOD, all factory...
    '79 Fairmont StaWag, 5.0, 62K original miles ... '04 Azure Blue 40th Anny Mach 1, 37K original miles...
    2012 F150 S-Crew 4x4 5.0 "Blue Coyote"... 65 coupe, 289 auto, Pony interior ... '67 coupe 6-cyl 4-speed ...
    '68 Vert, Mexican block 307 4-speed... '71 Datsun 510 ...
    And a 1-of-328 Deep Blue Pearl 2003 Marauder 4.6 DOHC, J-Mod, 4.10s and Lidio tune

  2. #27
    FEP Power Member moelll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Placentia, Ca
    Posts
    1,822

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    SEFI conversion.....

    Sent from my XT897 using Tapatalk 4
    1985 Ford LTD LX. 4 eyes, 4 doors-cobra powered
    2006 Ford F-150 Ashley/Smith special edition--the "daily driver"
    1986 ford mustang SVO--a man can always dream right?

  3. #28

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    As moelll Says. Easier to Go over to SEFI. Just follow his or my thread on it.
    1985 Mustang GT Mild 331 4bbl 5 spd, 1985 SEFI LTD LX AOD.
    Cardomain: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/565542
    Mid Size LTD LX Facebook page! http://www.facebook.com/groups/233213650060739/

  4. #29

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    'nother SEFI believer here...
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  5. #30

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    SEFI.....yeah, well, if Im taking the intake off, its getting a 4bbl.....which is the way Im leaning. I have the 85 gt setup with a couple of carbs and Im not afraid of the Lokar cable. I also scored the correct 2bbl carb for the application, yes, with the auto trans linkage and its, ready.....NOS!! I read that going to the 2bbl carb is a step down in performance. Not really interested in going fast with this car (yeah, cant believe I said it either) but with the 4bbl stuff available, may go that way just because.

    Guys, trust me, if this car was something to be saved or other than just a beater for me, I would be doing some cool stuff. I would be putting a 93 ho motor and 5 speed in it, 8.8, meats and it would handle like a cat on velcro. This just isnt that car. I appreciate what it is and I dig it to the fullest but this particular unit is past its prime.....for me anyway. If in the future I find one in much better shape to start, I will entertain upgrading and building something killer. Right now, transportation/extra car with least amount of effort and cash output. I need to build my wife an evil 90's coupe first anyway. Her grocery getter days are ending and she loves driving the Falcon....but thats another story.

  6. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by JACook View Post
    The low-pressure pump in the tank should be sufficient to supply a carb, but you'll still need a regulator,
    and you'll need to alter the fuel pump relay wiring, since that would have been controlled by the ECU.
    Ok, say I just put a totally different electric pump on it, do I need to remove the pump from the tank or will an external pump pull through it? Or, if I decide to use the one in the tank, should I keep the return hooked up?

    Quote Originally Posted by JACook View Post
    The stock wiring may or may not have a ballast resistor bypass jumper you can remove, otherwise if
    there's no ballast in the harness, you'll need to provide one inline with the coil only. The easiest way to
    implement the ballast bypass during start is to use a starter relay with the second post, which was for
    exactly that purpose on the older Fords.
    I have several parts for the older cars, 60's up through 80's type of stuff. Do you have a diagram for this?

    Quote Originally Posted by JACook View Post
    The carb linkage will not operate your AOD, unless you got one of the fairly rare Motorcraft carbs that
    have the proper TV linkage arm. Otherwise, you'll need a TV cable kit from Lokar, or use some other
    kind of transmission.
    I have the 2bbl carb with the linkage. May change it to a 4 anyway and use the Lokar cable. One thing I noticed yesterday was that the grommet at the current linkage is missing and its held on with an "adjusted" wiper arm clip. Im hoping the trans isnt fried. I drove it the other day for a couple of blocks and it shifted nicely from first to second but that was all the speed I could muster with the current engine issues. I would love to put a stick in it but Im missing a T5 and the bell housing....clutch....cable....shifter, you know, just a few essentials. I do have the pedal setup though.

    Anyway, thanks for the info.

  7. #32

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    My understanding is, if you use a regulator to reduce electric pump fuel pressure to carb pressure, it's better on your pump to have a return line.

    Also, I would say go T-5. I've had enough wars with the TV cable to scare me away from ever running an AOD again.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  8. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by cbncoupe View Post
    SEFI.....yeah, well, if Im taking the intake off, its getting a 4bbl.....which is the way Im leaning. I have the 85 gt setup with a couple of carbs and Im not afraid of the Lokar cable. I also scored the correct 2bbl carb for the application, yes, with the auto trans linkage and its, ready.....NOS!! I read that going to the 2bbl carb is a step down in performance. Not really interested in going fast with this car (yeah, cant believe I said it either) but with the 4bbl stuff available, may go that way just because.

    Guys, trust me, if this car was something to be saved or other than just a beater for me, I would be doing some cool stuff. I would be putting a 93 ho motor and 5 speed in it, 8.8, meats and it would handle like a cat on velcro. This just isnt that car. I appreciate what it is and I dig it to the fullest but this particular unit is past its prime.....for me anyway. If in the future I find one in much better shape to start, I will entertain upgrading and building something killer. Right now, transportation/extra car with least amount of effort and cash output. I need to build my wife an evil 90's coupe first anyway. Her grocery getter days are ending and she loves driving the Falcon....but thats another story.
    The reason why going to SEFI is easier is because everything is already there! the Pumps, fuel lines and the relays! Moelll goes through detailed instructions on what wires to remove and what to splice into for this conversion. All you need is a good 89+ MAS AIR engine/eec and fuel injection harnesses.

    Ripping all that good CFI wiring out for a carb is not really productive imo. Most of that CFI wiring can be spliced into for the SEFI conversion.
    1985 Mustang GT Mild 331 4bbl 5 spd, 1985 SEFI LTD LX AOD.
    Cardomain: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/565542
    Mid Size LTD LX Facebook page! http://www.facebook.com/groups/233213650060739/

  9. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrEFI View Post
    My understanding is, if you use a regulator to reduce electric pump fuel pressure to carb pressure, it's better on your pump to have a return line.

    Also, I would say go T-5. I've had enough wars with the TV cable to scare me away from ever running an AOD again.
    I used a Holley Blue on my GT. The 85 Carbed GT had a return line. So, I used that return line for the electric pump! Worked great.
    1985 Mustang GT Mild 331 4bbl 5 spd, 1985 SEFI LTD LX AOD.
    Cardomain: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/565542
    Mid Size LTD LX Facebook page! http://www.facebook.com/groups/233213650060739/

  10. #35

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    Since all the CFI cars have a return line, there's simply no good reason not to use a bypass-style
    regulator, and plenty of good reasons why you should.

    Using the low-pressure in-tank pump, the external pump needs to by replaced by a straight piece
    of line. If you use a low-pressure external pump, the internal pump can be left running or not.
    Either way, you still need to run a regulator.

    There's nothing really all that mystical about the TV pressure cable/rod, the biggest issue I see with
    AODs is there are too many people that think they figured out the ultimate TV adjustment shortcut,
    and right behind them are the ones that swear you can make a C4 kickdown arm do the job.

    All of the AOD-capable Motorcraft 2150s I've seen were bolted onto 255s, and yeah, that carb will not
    flow as much as the '84 CFI throttle body, let alone the larger '85. I believe there was a larger 2150
    with the AOD TV link used on 302s in vans, but I've yet to see one.

    I don't have the wiring diagrams for LTD, but on the Mustangs, up until around '84, the ballast was in
    the underdash harness. It's a red/light green wire that has fat rubber insulation, so it's easy to spot.
    Depending on year, it ran from either the fuse box or the ignition switch, to the connector where the
    underdash harness mates with the underhood harness. At that connector, it's joined by a brown/pink
    wire from the ignition switch that provides the start bypass. On models that used ignition systems
    that did not use the ballast (brown or red grommet), a jumper was added to the engine harness in the
    connector where it joins the underhood harness at the left fender apron. The jumper connects the red/
    light green "run" feed to the coil, to the white/light blue "run" feed that goes to the ignition module.

    But you probably don't have this.

    Around '84, the ballast resistor was moved to the underhood harness, and only exists in models that
    use the Duraspark ignition system. It runs in the bundle that crosses over the cowl. One end splices
    in near the A/C cycling switch, the other near the wiper motor. Models with CFI used a completely
    different harness, since most everything underhood is in a different place. I expect this is what you
    have.

    So this being a low-buck deal, the easy answer here is to remove the red/light green wire from the
    coil, and attach it to an external ballast resistor block. You might even be able to use the existing
    slip-on terminal. Connect a new jumper from the other side of the resistor to the coil. Then replace
    your starter relay with one from an earlier Ford, say 1st-gen Mustang, with the two small terminal
    posts. The first small terminal operates the relay, same as what you have now. The second small
    terminal gets tied in to the coil side of your ballast. That's exactly what that second post does on a
    1st-gen Mustang. (NB, that style starter relay should never be used on a car with TFI ignition, but
    yours won't anymore.)

    MSD, Mallory, and Moroso, to name a few, sell perfectly serviceable ballast resistors for <$20.
    Cheers,
    Jeff Cook

    '85 GT Hatch, 5-speed T-Top, Eibachs, Konis, & ARE 5-Spokes ... '85 GT Vert, CFI/AOD, all factory...
    '79 Fairmont StaWag, 5.0, 62K original miles ... '04 Azure Blue 40th Anny Mach 1, 37K original miles...
    2012 F150 S-Crew 4x4 5.0 "Blue Coyote"... 65 coupe, 289 auto, Pony interior ... '67 coupe 6-cyl 4-speed ...
    '68 Vert, Mexican block 307 4-speed... '71 Datsun 510 ...
    And a 1-of-328 Deep Blue Pearl 2003 Marauder 4.6 DOHC, J-Mod, 4.10s and Lidio tune

  11. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by JACook View Post
    Since all the CFI cars have a return line, there's simply no good reason not to use a bypass-style
    regulator, and plenty of good reasons why you should.

    Using the low-pressure in-tank pump, the external pump needs to by replaced by a straight piece
    of line. If you use a low-pressure external pump, the internal pump can be left running or not.
    Either way, you still need to run a regulator.

    There's nothing really all that mystical about the TV pressure cable/rod, the biggest issue I see with
    AODs is there are too many people that think they figured out the ultimate TV adjustment shortcut,
    and right behind them are the ones that swear you can make a C4 kickdown arm do the job.

    All of the AOD-capable Motorcraft 2150s I've seen were bolted onto 255s, and yeah, that carb will not
    flow as much as the '84 CFI throttle body, let alone the larger '85. I believe there was a larger 2150
    with the AOD TV link used on 302s in vans, but I've yet to see one.

    I don't have the wiring diagrams for LTD, but on the Mustangs, up until around '84, the ballast was in
    the underdash harness. It's a red/light green wire that has fat rubber insulation, so it's easy to spot.
    Depending on year, it ran from either the fuse box or the ignition switch, to the connector where the
    underdash harness mates with the underhood harness. At that connector, it's joined by a brown/pink
    wire from the ignition switch that provides the start bypass. On models that used ignition systems
    that did not use the ballast (brown or red grommet), a jumper was added to the engine harness in the
    connector where it joins the underhood harness at the left fender apron. The jumper connects the red/
    light green "run" feed to the coil, to the white/light blue "run" feed that goes to the ignition module.

    But you probably don't have this.

    Around '84, the ballast resistor was moved to the underhood harness, and only exists in models that
    use the Duraspark ignition system. It runs in the bundle that crosses over the cowl. One end splices
    in near the A/C cycling switch, the other near the wiper motor. Models with CFI used a completely
    different harness, since most everything underhood is in a different place. I expect this is what you
    have.

    So this being a low-buck deal, the easy answer here is to remove the red/light green wire from the
    coil, and attach it to an external ballast resistor block. You might even be able to use the existing
    slip-on terminal. Connect a new jumper from the other side of the resistor to the coil. Then replace
    your starter relay with one from an earlier Ford, say 1st-gen Mustang, with the two small terminal
    posts. The first small terminal operates the relay, same as what you have now. The second small
    terminal gets tied in to the coil side of your ballast. That's exactly what that second post does on a
    1st-gen Mustang. (NB, that style starter relay should never be used on a car with TFI ignition, but
    yours won't anymore.)

    MSD, Mallory, and Moroso, to name a few, sell perfectly serviceable ballast resistors for <$20.
    I remembered that when I built my V8 injected Ranger, I found a local place that had all the Ford style fuel line fittings and nylon line. I'll be using that to bridge where the external pump is now and I will use the return.

    I'll have to figure out what I have for wiring first but the question I have is about the ballast resistor. If I have a dual (mini) post relay and run the coil wire from the 'I' post, do I really need the ballast? If so, cool but I was told I dont. Maybe they missed the fact that the wire is the ballast in saying I dont need one.

    Another question: The coil. Can I use the existing one or do I need to find an older style?

    As for the AOD TV cable, I was going to use the Lokar cable. Im going with a 4bbl so I figure this is the safest route. The NOS 2bbl carb I have is tag number E1TE CPA. I also have an '82 Mustang GT carb coming. Still put the 4V stuff on it.

    Thanks for the info. Should make some headway this weekend.

  12. #37

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    The "I" terminal on the starter relay is for the ballast resistor -bypass-, when you're starting the engine.
    The "I" post should only provide voltage when the relay is energized. You still need a ballast resistor block
    in line with the coil the rest of the time. I know guys have run the E-core coil, but I believe the Duraspark
    module will be happier with the original style black-top coil.
    Cheers,
    Jeff Cook

    '85 GT Hatch, 5-speed T-Top, Eibachs, Konis, & ARE 5-Spokes ... '85 GT Vert, CFI/AOD, all factory...
    '79 Fairmont StaWag, 5.0, 62K original miles ... '04 Azure Blue 40th Anny Mach 1, 37K original miles...
    2012 F150 S-Crew 4x4 5.0 "Blue Coyote"... 65 coupe, 289 auto, Pony interior ... '67 coupe 6-cyl 4-speed ...
    '68 Vert, Mexican block 307 4-speed... '71 Datsun 510 ...
    And a 1-of-328 Deep Blue Pearl 2003 Marauder 4.6 DOHC, J-Mod, 4.10s and Lidio tune

  13. #38
    FEP Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    158

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    Quote Originally Posted by cbncoupe View Post
    ...I know the dist is off a tooth, not my doing but my findings...
    If the engine has over 100K the timing chain may be loose simulating a tooth off.......302 chains are nortoriuos to only last 100K
    Terry

    78 Fairmont Sedan V8 - Factory black interior, factory A/C, No longer a SHO project, t/c 8.8 diff w/ 3.73LS
    85 LTD LX - Black, 5.0L CFI, crank windows
    93 Mustang LX 5.0L notch - original owner, 20k original miles
    17 F250 - My RV Trailer, projects, and car hauler vehicle

  14. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by SHOmont View Post
    302 chains are nortoriuos to only last 100K
    That very much depends on the 302. The non-HO versions used a nylon-tooth cam sprocket that was
    lucky to even last that long. The HO versions, including those with CFI, use a double-row chain with
    iron sprockets that is very durable.

    It's easy to test for timing chain slop. Just use a breaker bar on the crank damper bolt to rock the
    engine forward and back, feeling for how much movement you get before the valvetrain starts to move.
    Cheers,
    Jeff Cook

    '85 GT Hatch, 5-speed T-Top, Eibachs, Konis, & ARE 5-Spokes ... '85 GT Vert, CFI/AOD, all factory...
    '79 Fairmont StaWag, 5.0, 62K original miles ... '04 Azure Blue 40th Anny Mach 1, 37K original miles...
    2012 F150 S-Crew 4x4 5.0 "Blue Coyote"... 65 coupe, 289 auto, Pony interior ... '67 coupe 6-cyl 4-speed ...
    '68 Vert, Mexican block 307 4-speed... '71 Datsun 510 ...
    And a 1-of-328 Deep Blue Pearl 2003 Marauder 4.6 DOHC, J-Mod, 4.10s and Lidio tune

  15. #40

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    Well, Im sure it was a tooth off but it doesn't matter now. This is today's aftermath. Supposed to be getting my 4V stuff today. As soon as I do, I'll get all the mechanics in order. Then I'll dive into the wiring and see if I can get that figured out. I'm sure there's enough info in here somewhere to get me into some trouble.

    For some reason, I'm thinking the in-tank fuel pump may not be working. Also, if I energize the pump without the lines hooked up, shouldn't it run continuously? Just seemed to prime and shut off. I guess I could jump the relay but not sure which wires to jump.


    Leftovers
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  16. #41

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    The ECU turns on the fuel pump(s) for a few seconds when you turn on the ignition, to pre-charge
    the system. It then shuts the pump(s) off until it sees tach pulses from the distributor.

    To keep the pump running once you go carb, you only need to ground the ECU side of the fuel pump
    relay coil circuit, as long as you provide an ignition-on feed to the inertia switch. You could also
    just leave the ECU relay wired up to provide the feed.
    Cheers,
    Jeff Cook

    '85 GT Hatch, 5-speed T-Top, Eibachs, Konis, & ARE 5-Spokes ... '85 GT Vert, CFI/AOD, all factory...
    '79 Fairmont StaWag, 5.0, 62K original miles ... '04 Azure Blue 40th Anny Mach 1, 37K original miles...
    2012 F150 S-Crew 4x4 5.0 "Blue Coyote"... 65 coupe, 289 auto, Pony interior ... '67 coupe 6-cyl 4-speed ...
    '68 Vert, Mexican block 307 4-speed... '71 Datsun 510 ...
    And a 1-of-328 Deep Blue Pearl 2003 Marauder 4.6 DOHC, J-Mod, 4.10s and Lidio tune

  17. #42

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JACook View Post
    The ECU turns on the fuel pump(s) for a few seconds when you turn on the ignition, to pre-charge
    the system. It then shuts the pump(s) off until it sees tach pulses from the distributor.

    To keep the pump running once you go carb, you only need to ground the ECU side of the fuel pump
    relay coil circuit, as long as you provide an ignition-on feed to the inertia switch. You could also
    just leave the ECU relay wired up to provide the feed.
    PCM pin 22 was the tan w/green wire from the relay......I grounded that wire and the pump ran.

    On a side note, the pressure seemed low as it pumped into the jug (was expecting a steady strong stream, it wasnt), then, after maybe 90 seconds, it started to peter out a bit. I turned it off and on and it was the same cycle. I may need to change the filter or drop the tank and clean the sock and tank. The fuel coming out was more like diesel than gas. Not looking forward to this.

  18. #43

    Default

    Yeah, grounding the pump relay there will work as long as the ECU power relay is also energized.
    The same source that powers the ECU also powers the other side of the FP relay.
    Cheers,
    Jeff Cook

    '85 GT Hatch, 5-speed T-Top, Eibachs, Konis, & ARE 5-Spokes ... '85 GT Vert, CFI/AOD, all factory...
    '79 Fairmont StaWag, 5.0, 62K original miles ... '04 Azure Blue 40th Anny Mach 1, 37K original miles...
    2012 F150 S-Crew 4x4 5.0 "Blue Coyote"... 65 coupe, 289 auto, Pony interior ... '67 coupe 6-cyl 4-speed ...
    '68 Vert, Mexican block 307 4-speed... '71 Datsun 510 ...
    And a 1-of-328 Deep Blue Pearl 2003 Marauder 4.6 DOHC, J-Mod, 4.10s and Lidio tune

  19. #44

    Default

    I dropped the tank today. Oh boy. Came out easy but what I found was a mess. Both tubes broke off the sender. The liquid that was lurking about was attempting to revert back to it's base elements and there is a coating of rust and crap on the inside. Need to clean it somehow. Suggestions?

    Otherwise I'm thinking I may put a cell in it and use the external pump. Some of you say not to do that..... why?

    So, 1 step father away from a driver.

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  20. #45
    FEP Power Member moelll's Avatar
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    A local radiator shop can clean it out for you. That's what I ended up having to do on mine, I think they will charge around $65 or so. Now once its cleaned out and depending on how badly gone those lines are, you might be better off getting a replacement tank, you can get them new

    Sent from my XT897 using Tapatalk
    1985 Ford LTD LX. 4 eyes, 4 doors-cobra powered
    2006 Ford F-150 Ashley/Smith special edition--the "daily driver"
    1986 ford mustang SVO--a man can always dream right?

  21. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by moelll View Post
    A local radiator shop can clean it out for you. That's what I ended up having to do on mine, I think they will charge around $65 or so. Now once its cleaned out and depending on how badly gone those lines are, you might be better off getting a replacement tank, you can get them new

    Sent from my XT897 using Tapatalk
    The lines on the sender are shot. I need the whole package, tank, sender with pump.....surprisingly enough, the straps are in great condition!

  22. #47

  23. #48

    Default

    I wouldn't use a fuel cell because it takes up valuable real estate in the trunk. Especially if this is going to be a daily driver. I prefer to use my car as a car.

    I have just the low pressure pump. i'm using the sender body, so I don't have that for you. You might have to bite the bullet and buy the sender new. Parts stores won't have it in stock, but they'll be able to get it. It's about $100 if I remember correctly. If you buy it new, it will come with the pump, so my pump wouldn't do you any good. Let me know if you want it anyway though. it's brand new, and I think I've even got a spare.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  24. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrEFI View Post
    I wouldn't use a fuel cell because it takes up valuable real estate in the trunk. Especially if this is going to be a daily driver. I prefer to use my car as a car.

    I have just the low pressure pump. i'm using the sender body, so I don't have that for you. You might have to bite the bullet and buy the sender new. Parts stores won't have it in stock, but they'll be able to get it. It's about $100 if I remember correctly. If you buy it new, it will come with the pump, so my pump wouldn't do you any good. Let me know if you want it anyway though. it's brand new, and I think I've even got a spare.
    Yeah, I ruled that out already for that reason. Trunk space is critical.

    I can get a tank for 100 clams and Im going to see what the sender unit will cost at my local parts store. I'll wait a couple of days to see if anyone has something laying around.

    Got my LP pump working.

  25. #50

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    Ok, tank cleaned and back in. Got a new sender for 80 clams. Removed the old rotted exhaust and replaced the manifolds with '85 headers. Removed the HP pump and installed bypass tube and new filter. Picking up a resister today and will build wire harness this weekend. If all goes well, it should be running Sunday afternoon......should.

    My mysteries are the carb and the engine itself. It ran before but poorly. And the carb was sitting on the shelf for a while. I have another but would like to use the one thats on it.

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