Tuning a 200cid I-6

[Crazy_C]

Hi guys. I have a 1980 Mustang with a 200cid inline 6 and I'm debating between tuning that, or doing a 302 V8 swap. For the swap I'd need to change the tranny as well as its a C3 in mine, not a C4.

I want decent performance and enough grunt to smoke the rear tyres.

I was thinking of a comp cam with 260 degree, and a carb upgrade, possibly a better dizzy as well. Will this give me the result I'm looking for? Engine is good, but the carb is a bit knackered.

What carb will be best for the inline 6?


Cheers

[mustangxtreme]

You will find a lot if info about you 200 in the I6, V6, and N/A 2.3 section.

[richstang]

Check out a company called Clifford Performance (CA?). If my memory serves me correct they specialized in I6 engine mods. Years ago, I had an '81 coupe that needed a new intake / head since it had a crack between the center intake runners. They suggested a .050 head cut with rods, a port and polish, and a few other mods. After it was all said and done the difference to me was nominal and left me disappointed. Needless to say, I'm in the camp of more displacement, so a V8 swap would be my suggestion.

[JACook]

Classic Inlines is another great source of parts for the Ford Six, as are our friends Down Under.
Don't be too quick to condemn the stock ignition, but there are definitely some better options
when it comes to carburetor and exhaust.

I'm moving this over to the I6, V6, and N/A 2.3 section where it'll get the attention it deserves.

[Crazy_C]

Cheers for moving it. I saw the thread that said mods so figured that was the place.

I've been looking on Classic Inlines, and already spent $1k in my mind lol Great source of info on there too! Cheers. You guys have pretty much made me a broke, but very happy man! Haha

[Foxy Capri]

Crazy, your first decision is whether you want to retain originality or not? If not, you'd be much better off throwing your dollars at a 302 and either a rock solid C4 or a 5-speed conversion. For starters, you can spend a quick 2 or 3-grand on hopping up the 200cid, with an complete aluminium 2V/4V head from Classic Inlines (http://www.classicinlines.com/Home.asp). You'll also need a suitable carby and a nice set of headers. A cam change to a 260 degree profile would also be good, but how solid is your bottom end? It may need to be rebuilt and strengthened as well. There are many more possibilities with the in-line 6, it just depends on how much money you want to throw at it! The choice is yours, perhaps the 302 conversion would be better for you, if originality isn't a problem! Try the Ford Six forum also for many tips and ideas: http://fordsix.com/forum/ and Clifford Performance at http://www.cliffordperformance.net/index.html for some 200cid parts. Good luck with your decision. Me, I'm going Aussie Falcon 250 2V head with a Holley 2-barrel and headers and it's happening right now. Cheers from Downunder!

[xctasy]

The iron log head can be triple carbed for less than a 2V Australian or Arizona Classic Inlines head. 300 bucks and some carbs, and your dough is bread. With a compression hike from the stock 8.4:1, and a nicer 260 Comp Cmas cam profile, you can got a huge amount of power and torque. The stock Duraspark II just needs a regig to bump up stock timing at idle, and to wind back peak advance. I suggest using three 1946 Holley 1-bbls as they use a stock Holley jet, you can remove replace the power valve with a much lower number, and use three 68 jets, up seven sizes from the 61 that are liley to be there now. By keeping the stock emissions fittings, you'll ease your chances of passing a smog check. I'd look at a rod change to forged, and a competent rebuild with the stock pistons replaced by Duralite or ACL flat tops. They are more resistant to cracking, a common problem with 255 V8 pistons, and also the Silverlite HSC 2.3 reproductions which have an increased offset wrist pin.

Here is a triple carbed 250 engine in a Fox Mustang back from the 80's by Jack Collins. It has a split exhast, early Falcon linkage, and welded on intake adaptor. It has five problems which I'll detail below, but you get the general idea.



Problem is, the Fox bodies and post 1971 I6 Fords have issues with linkage, emissions, kickdown and transmission types which are very poorly understood. In addition, Ford changed everything around almost every year, so getting matched parts is something of a lottery.

The best option on a dollar for dollar basis is definately the triple carb Offenhauser or Edelbrock flat top log adaptor, but there are five insurmountable catches on Fox bodies:-

1. Each require the old style Falcon Six passenger side linkage which
2. deep sixes the prospect of using the stock A/C pump,
3 the stock EGR valve and
4. the stock emissions certified carbs.
5. If auto, then the stock kickdown rod on C3 and C4/C5 3.3 sixes then become a non runner.

(The kickdown rod used on auto post 1971 Fords is impossible to use on a triple carb conversion, due to its possition right where the back carb goes).

You need to be aware that the stock aftermarket triple carb set up uses either

1.the three new 34 ICH Weber 1-bbl carbs in 1.142" venturi for 138 cfm or 414 cfm at 1.5" Hg, enough to flow 180 to 200 hp all up with the outer carbs staged to come in at 2/3rds throttle

See http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=64712

or

2. the slightly better flowing big bore stock Ford I6 production carb versions with
2 x Outer Holley 1904/1908/1909 125/130/150/170 cfm in 1.352" venturi and
1x inner Autolite 1100/1101( or Holley 1940/Motorcraft branded) carbs, 131 cfm 1.20", 149 cfm 1.29" venturi.

Some 1100's have 1.00 or 1.1 venturis and flow as little as 120 to 150 cfm at 1.5" Hg. Get the wrong one, and you have a flow loss of 20 to 54%. Some of the flow rates of the smaller cars are in debate, and they may be even less. One things for certain, you need three really big 1-bbl carbs to even get close to one 4150, 4160 or 4180 600 cfm 4-bbl in a 5.0 4BBL HO.

Total flow can be as little as 370 to as much as 449 cfm at 1.5" Hg

With the normal pre Fox conversions, you just had to get the right 40 to 50 year old "big bore" versions from the 215/223/240/250/262/300 I6 cars from the 50's and 60's to get best flowing set up. Each Holley and Autolite has a small and large carb, under the same casting number...get it wrong, and you won't see the performance increases you need.

Holley 1904 from 1952 215/223/262
Holley 1904 from 1960 Falcon 144. 130, 150 or 170cfm at 1.5"Hg
Holley 1908 from 1960 late 144 and 170, 135 and 150cfm at 1.5" Hg
Holley 1909 series was rated at 170 cfm at 1.5" Hg for early cars, then downgraded to 125 or 150cfm for the small 1909.

With that example, the Holley 1909 was 170cfm at 1.5"Hg for the 1962 Falcon, but the wrong one could be as little as 125 cfm, a huge drop in air flow and power potential.

The last mixed Holley/Autolite set up uses lots of outmodded parts, but Classic Inlines makes new or reconditioned versions of each, and when its linked with a 1:1 linkage, you can get 220 hp out of the set up fairly easily with cam, compression and exhast and work on the right closed chamber cylinder head.

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.p...502631#p502631

The later Foxes ran the C3 kickdown rod, which is the same as the C4 and C5 item. Good news is that converting to cable operation, or running a high mount C4 or C5 from a 1978 to 1983 Fox body, can be done easily if you run it off the center carb.

The Fox solution is easy. Use the center carb that is there. Its 143.3 cfm at 1.5"Hg. If you run the stock emissions legal 1978 to 1983 85 to 92 hp 1946 Holley carb in the center, and then mechanically operated spare 1946 Holleys on the out side, and a cable kickdown from Lokar like jahearnes below, you can swing 430 cfm, and enough for an easy 180 hp.

When used with a throttle kick down lever, or even Throttle Valve cables like they used for the more complicated AOD transmissions, the Lokar set up being the ultimate solution and its set up is world class. This was the system based on the common European V6 cable operated C3 and C4 system used in their Cologne and Essex V6's from 1974 to 1987. You just can't go wrong with it. Getting rid of the old rod operated kickdown allows you to fit a raft of good carbs to the log head engine, and it'll save you big money. The outer two 1946 carbs can be driven off a Trans Am 302 style Dominator dual 4-bbl set up, and the inner actuation via slotted rod to allow 52 degrees of lost motion before the last 26 degrees makes up the total 78 degrees to form wide open throttle on all three carbs. Hence the outers are staged to come in at 2/3rds throttle.



The long link goes over the rocker cover on the I6, and pushes and pulls at 90 degrees via bellcrank from a point halfway between the two outer carbs like on the 1969 Bud Moore 302 T/A Boss





For a close up of the outer carb actuation see Wilson Engineering
"New throttle linkage design for twin carburettor set up. 4150 or Dominator. — at Wilson Engineering in Brisbane, Queensland".

Its just Bud Moores old twin Dominator 4500 dual quad set up remade in 2013

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=2&theater

And the bell crank that makes it all possible.



There are other systems, Enderle make them,


as well as Redline

[Crazy_C]

Cheers for the input guys. I'm not worried about originality, however doing a V8 conversion is easy enough, but finding the parts and them being affordable in England is a different matter. We don't have anything with the same engine over here so getting the bits for a 302 swap or head swap.

I knew about the old triple carb set up as I've always been into my American motors. The set up on a triple carb build wouldn't really suit for the style of driving I do though as I want there to be the power before planting my foot flat down, so something like the Weber 32 36 would be better. Used them on several other cars in the past and they're perfect for me.

I like the straight six, its a good motor, but I just want it to have a bit more power, hence looking at the carb upgrade and the cam. Fairly simple modifications but should hopefully be enough to get the desired results. I'm not chasing huge power as I've had the pro street drag cars before, I loved them on the strip but not for anything else.

[Foxy Capri]

Cheers for the input guys. I'm not worried about originality, however doing a V8 conversion is easy enough, but finding the parts and them being affordable in England is a different matter. We don't have anything with the same engine over here so getting the bits for a 302 swap or head swap.
.....
I like the straight six, its a good motor, but I just want it to have a bit more power, hence looking at the carb upgrade and the cam. Fairly simple modifications but should hopefully be enough to get the desired results. I'm not chasing huge power as I've had the pro street drag cars before, I loved them on the strip but not for anything else.

Crazy, you should have identified that you were resident in the UK earlier, in order to help us to help you! A cam and a 2-barrel carby will do the trick, and you should consider a set of headers (extractors) as well. Alternatively, you could discount the cam and just fit a nice set of roller rockers, along with the carby and headers, to save you dropping your motor out for a cam change. This way, you just need to take off the head.

OR, you could source a nice Capri 2.8i V6 and bolt that up, as these Mustangs and Capris did use them in 1979 and early 1980, before changing to the 200cid I6. You do have options over there, again , it's just how much money and trouble you want to go to in the chase for more grunt!

[Crazy_C]

My bad on not mentioning the Pommie bit before lol

Is changing the cam on the 200cid a motor out job then? I figured it'd just be the same as any other cam change I've done, pull the valve cover off, undo the clamps and lift the camshaft out. Please tell me it isn't one of those cams where you have to actually pull the blighter out the front of the head?

[Foxy Capri]

Unfortunately, as the 200cid I6 is NOT an OHC engine, you'll find the cam is located in the block! My suggestion to you is, unless you think the bottom end needs attention, rings, bearings, etc., leave it exactly as it is and concentrate solely on the head and it's attachments. A weber carby, perhaps roller rockers and a nice set of extractors (headers) will give you a lift in HP.

I thoroughly recommend that you do yourself a favour and purchase "The Ford Falcon Six Cylinder Performance Handbook" co-authored by David and Dennis Schjeldahl, it has a wealth of info about these engines in its 108 pages and offers many different options for "hopping them up". You'll can find a copy at:

http://www.classicinlines.com/products.asp?cat=73

Or from the author:
http://falcon6handbook.com/

OR, in the UK from:
http://www.mustangbooks.com/classic.html

Scroll about halfway down the page

Mustang Books.com
45 Craigwell Avenue
Feltham, UK
TW13 7JR

[jessew]

Well, if you happen to have the radiator out, then the cam can just go straight out.

[xctasy]

The reason the T and B code 3.3 engines were standard in the United Kingdom Mustangs was that it was then the simplest and most reliable engine base, with the C4 gearbox the same as the European 3.0 Granada and Capri 3000 GXL, and it has always been the worlds easiest engine to do maintenance on.


Since you've got to do other things on what is normlly a 3 hour job on an engine in good condition, your now looking at an 8 hour job plus potential time cost of further head machining for you if you use a thicker than stock steel or composite gasket on a Fox. The stock compression is 8.4:1 with a 60 cc chamber head with a very thin 22 thou steel shim gasket. Normal replacement gaskets at 25 and 45 thou drop the compression further unless you shave the head. A good head chamber volume is 50 cc, which needs a 50 to 60 thou head plane to get down to that cylinder volume. If you go to 45 thou thick gasket, you'll need to take 70 to 85 thou off the head. The composite gasket is really cheap, just a about 30 pounds ex NZ or Australia from Appco or Repco. Its the standard replacement 1964 to 1975 188/200/221/250 log head and 250 2V head gasket.

You need to have a 3 leg harmonic balancer 'puller' and you just have to take the radiator out and unhook the C4 auto trans cooler lines. The cam is about 26" long and it needs to come out the grille holes, most times you'll slide it through the rectangles.

Its 8hrs because its best to do the lifters at the same time, so head removal is another 3 hours on the 3 hours to do the cam, then a couple of hours in case you have to drop the nose cone and reset the lights. You'd do a full head gasket (25 thou thick cometec from Classic Inlines, or 45 thou thick Australian APPCO), new Clay Smith or Competitions Cam and lifter replacement. The cam chain should be replaced with a twin roller chain. The head should have new 1960 to 1983 US Ford I6 seals on guides of the head, new 289 or 302 valve springs with 4.0 SOHC Explorer retainers/collets (keepers) , and the right gasket with attention to getting the right compression ratio.

The rest is the 5970 Offenhauser 3 bbl Tripower intake adaptor, US $382.89 from Phethean Racing Products, on www.offyparts.com

http://www.offyparts.com/product_inf...roducts_id/238

It has been patterned for the small stud spacing 1970 to 1974 stock carburetor in the center and two smaller venturi carburetors on each end. (Small 2 bolt-2-5/8 ). You will have to adjust the studs to accomodate the 1946 Holley 1-bbl carbs.



looking like Powerband's from the HAMB and Ford Six Performance boards. This guy is a true gentleman, with a wealth of info, and has 170 and 250 X-bodies with very stout performance



. . . . .


They supply a special throttle linkage which progressive, but won't clear the A/C, the EGR , nor allow the stock 1946 Holley to be connected to the stock cable throttle type.


This is the set up on Powerbands 250, its very well detailed and arranged, but it doesn't suit the Fox bodies EGR and A/C space limitations




Additionally, the carb holes for the recommended by Offy 1904 and 1909 Holley carbs aren't big enough to maximise gas flow.

Here are the sizes before application of the 5970 kit, showing that the center 1.75" hole is huge, but the two outer holes are 1.5", way too small for equalized flow.



The set up is nominally thus

Front 1-bbl plate is 1-1/16" thick aluminium with a 1-1/2" o-ringed port. ( 4 fasteners at Weber 2-bbl spacings)

Center 1-bbl plate is 1-3/16" thick aluminium with a 1-3/4" port pass-throught to OEM log intake manifold .

Rear 1 bbl plate is 1-7/16" thick aluminium with a 1-1/2" o-ringed port. ( 4 fasteners at Weber 2-bbl spacings)


JB Weld/Devcon can be used instead of the outer o rings, and you can then take the outer holes out to1.75" to suit the 1946 Holley 1-bbl's.


In your case, maintain the staged opening of the outer carbs, with the center carb turning first to 52 degrees and then the end ones together to a full 78 to 80 degrees (wide open throttle on a Holley 1-bbl). The manifold comes complete with linkage and detailed instructions for proper installation, which you won't be able to follow. NOTE: It is necessary to remove the cylinder head to install the manifold, and remember, 2-bbl conversions to log heads are more of a risk than tri power adaptor, as the iron casting doesn't like a lot of metal being taken off the already large 1.75" 1-bbl hole...its a thin wall casting, and it tends to crack unless its furnace braized.

The world over, from Argentina to Britian to Japan to Zealand, foreign left hand drive right hooker export Foxes and most really good early T top notch show cars were more often than not 3.3;s, and they are loved and reworked on a regular basis










And your mates notch

Which I saw on 22nd May on Retrorides. http://retrorides.proboards.com/thre...-mustang-3-fox

[Crazy_C]

Cheers for all the info guys. Got plenty to work on there. When my mate sees about doing a V8 swap in his notch, I'll get the 6 pot off him out of his, and see about doing a full on build.

I still need to do things like the carb on my current motor as it's getting annoying at the moment with it not running quite right, and the 1bbl being asthmatic as hell, but I will see about doing a good build on the 200cid when I get the engine out my mate's fox. That way I can just take my time, no rush, and get it done properly.

[BRWSaver]

It will never match the 302 for power, but since you aren't somewhere where you find a 302 under every rock I'd just build the 200.

Here's what we did to our racecar for 24 Hours of Lemons duty:

1) Cut ends off exhaust manifold and get it plugged, make new manifold for cylinders 1, 2 and 6 (certainly not the most efficient header design, but now we have 2 2" pipes full of exhaust instead of 1. My design is full of bends, but even a simple tubular copy of the original with 3 pipes bolted to 1, 2 and 6 and a exit just to the outside of the stock manifold will work great and cost little)

2) Mill head at least .060" and get a good valve job (these motors had something like 8.5:1 compression and a thin metal head gasket, you need to mill .020" just to break even with a modern gasket. The extra .040" (I believe you call that a millimeter) will bring you up to about 9.5:1)

3) Clay Smith 264 duration 110 center cam (from Classic Inlines, I could go bigger, but I got this one 2nd hand. Idles fine, makes good power from 2000rpm all the way over 5000rpm)

4) Some sort of 2bbl conversion (I used a Rochester 2GC with 2 1 1/2" holes, I think that's about 38mm each, not progressive, they just both open. Find a machine shop and grind out a big flat spot, apply epoxy, then make an adapter out of a hunk of aluminum.

Not sure how much power we make, but its got to be somewhere above 150hp, and its very drivable.

[xctasy]

The stock 1946 is a very good 200 cfm at 3.0" Hg carb. But it's only one, on its own it flows about the same as one 2.25 liter Land Rover four cylinder carb. That's why it only makes 85 to 94 hp in stock 1978 to 1983 Mustangs.

It's able to make much better power than that, but its lacking in carb area. It equals a pinch point.

For years, poeple have been just bolting up Holley 19xx or Auolite 1100's and getting the 3 carb set ups working. They do it with tiny 27 mm outer holes and small log heads, and still seam to be happy with the inferior performance of a staged 3-bbl system. That's the key, people have been doing triple carb set ups since 1960, and with 53 years of experience to research, you owe it to yourself to just look at the alternatives.

Here is a small log installation, small carb tripower set up

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/28...st-460s-3.html

The stock log head is a low flowing item, it's got a paltry 105 to 125 cfm at 25" H20 pressure depending on which casting you use. It compares with 145 cfm at 25 "Hg for the Aussie alloy head 3.3/4.1 cross flow. 156 cfm for the 2V 250 and the Classic Inlines is about 210 cfm. So the stock iron head is a pinch point, but even with that, you can still get 125 rear wheel hp. BRW Saver proves it. I have no reason to doubt that 150 flywheel hp figure with just exhast, carb and 264 Clay Smith cam. I'd say that would be well over a 75% power boost on a stock 1978 3.3 Fox.

Put simply, the log 1-bbl head 3.3 is more responsive to the right mods than any 302.

See Horsing around with the Mustang Six. http://www.classicinlines.com/HA1.asp

Back track 45 years ago. On percentage terms, a 67 rear wheel hp 3.3 can become an 85% power increase, fire breathing 3.3 with just cam, carb and header mods. Before you even look into head flow improvements.

If you go triples, you will get everything hp wise you need.

In terms of just one 4-bbl carb, see this.

http://www.classicinlines.com/dynoroom.asp

http://www.classicinlines.com/Dyno2.asp



That chassis dynoed the CI Intake & 4V at 211.0rwhp @ 4850
and 227.5 rear wheel ft lb @ 4850 rpm


The 4-bbl 480 cfm cfm Classic Inlines with a great head, based on the common 26.5% drivelihe loss, charts 266 flywheel hp, about the same as the last 1973 US 351 Cleveland Super Cobra Jet base engine used in the 248 hp net deTomaso Pantera L and the last hi performance 266 hp 1973 Mustang



Just carbs, cam, good exhast and some head planing for compression, and You Are There. The only issue for any later Fox I6 is the cast iron conrods.

[Crazy_C]

Wow, I've been browsing around CI site but hasn't seen that table.

I've decided that what I'm going to do is have the I6 off my mate when he V8s his fox notch, and then I can take my time with a motor out rebuild. Do things like the cam, bottom end, and maybe the CI intake if funds allow it.

[Leonardo Villanueva]

[Leonardo Villanueva]

[Leonardo Villanueva]

[xctasy]

I'm not sure how to explain with passion and praise the joy of finaly finding an inside the engine bay shot of your car Leonardo Villanueva!

Its yo quiero verses yo quisiera orme gustaría

l was 21 years old in 1990, and saw a 292 Chev engine with a Motech injection system like yours. To see the same kind of thing on a 3.3 Ford Falcon/ Fox engine is just wild. I'll bet it sounds like Vintage Juan Manuel Fangio... on acid!

[mustangxtreme]

Leonardo, you sir have a gorgeous car. I would love to hear more about it.

[xctasy]

Hear this!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysHxN10q2zQ

How about it?