Which T5 am I looking for to replace a SROD behind a 3.3l??

[BRWSaver]

From what I have seen online there are about 3 different length input shafts used on the T5 over the years. Which one is the correct one to bolt to the SROD bellhousing (if I'm not mistaken the 3.3 bell is taller thatn the 2.3, or 5.0 bell)? I know I have to weld it up and redrill the holes, but first I have to find a tranny to swap in. Hopefully It will be the easier to find 2.3l 4cyl version with the .8 overdrive, not the harder to find V8 version with the much steeper .68 overdrive.

Woody

[83GTURBO]

The 2.3l T5 would probably be you best shot depending on the build of the engine. anything over 300hp will put a major strain on the tranny.

[wraithracing]

I am not an expert on the straight 6 by any means . . .

If I understand correctly the 3.3L found in the 4E Mustangs uses a SBF bellhousing pattern, but only 4 of the 6 possible bolts match up. I am not sure which ones are off or if you can modify a regular V8/V6 T5 bellhousing to fit.

But if the above is true and you are willing to make it work, a T5 out of a SN95 Mustang with the 3.8 V6 would probably be your best option. The gearing would probably work well with your 3.3 and if you get the bellhousing and transmission as a unit then you shouldn't have any fitment issue due to input shaft lengths.

As for the input shaft lengths, IIRC the 83-93 T5 units are all the same input shaft length, but you have the 2 different diameters for the V8 and non V8.

The 94/95 V8 units use the longer input shaft (@ 5/8" IIRC) and require the matching bellhousing or a spacer with an earlier bellhousing. I am not sure on the 3.8 V6 units if they are longer or not.

Hope that helps some. Good Luck!

Trey

After a bit of research it appears the 3.8 V6 T5 was used until 2010 in the Mustang. The First gear ratio is a 3.35 and the overdrive is either a .73 or.68 in 94/95 and .68 from 96-2010. The 99-2010 models do not use a speedo gear so keep that in mind too. It also appears the input shaft is longer on the V6 T5 too, but you can either use the 94-2010 bellhousing or swap out the input shaft to a 83-93 length unit and use the 83-93 bellhousings.

Trey

[Bungy]

Woody, Do you know the depth of your 3.3 bellhousing? I have a couple of 2.3 T5 bellhousings I can measure for comparison. I think Trey is right and that you will probably need the longer 94 up V6 T5 if you're going to use the 3.3 bell.
The 83-93 2.3 input shaft is slightly longer then the 83-93 V8 shaft by 1/4". In the pics I attached you can see the three inputs. 94 V6 on left, 2.3 in middle and 86-93 V8 on right. The 94 V6 is 7/16" longer then the 2.3 shaft.

http://i531.photobucket.com/albums/d...psfe1adec8.jpg

http://i531.photobucket.com/albums/d...ps8fb7021b.jpg

http://i531.photobucket.com/albums/d...ps613fa07f.jpg

[BRWSaver]

Not sure what length I have. I need to pull the tranny out and measure. I need to get the SROD bell welded up anyway to drill it for the T5 bolt pattern. I was just hoping someone had the info off the top of their head.

[BRWSaver]

I am not an expert on the straight 6 by any means . . .

If I understand correctly the 3.3L found in the 4E Mustangs uses a SBF bellhousing pattern, but only 4 of the 6 possible bolts match up. I am not sure which ones are off or if you can modify a regular V8/V6 T5 bellhousing to fit....

Hope that helps some. Good Luck!

Trey

After a bit of research it appears the 3.8 V6 T5 was used until 2010 in the Mustang. The First gear ratio is a 3.35 and the overdrive is either a .73 or.68 in 94/95 and .68 from 96-2010. The 99-2010 models do not use a speedo gear so keep that in mind too. It also appears the input shaft is longer on the V6 T5 too, but you can either use the 94-2010 bellhousing or swap out the input shaft to a 83-93 length unit and use the 83-93 bellhousings.

Trey

The problem is the 3.3 uses a unique bell housing bolt pattern, I am not using the low mount almost a V8 bell housing motor. The good news though is that I have a bell already with the SROD bolted to it. With a little work it will bolt up. I guess it can be assumed the early T5 was made to bolt in the same place as the SROD, so the earlier the better, swap wise.

I'm not worrying about overpowering the T5. The 3.3/200 can't hardly even match the power of a well built 2.3 SOHC motor. Plus we are road racing, not drag racing.

[wraithracing]

The problem is the 3.3 uses a unique bell housing bolt pattern, I am not using the low mount almost a V8 bell housing motor. The good news though is that I have a bell already with the SROD bolted to it. With a little work it will bolt up. I guess it can be assumed the early T5 was made to bolt in the same place as the SROD, so the earlier the better, swap wise.

I'm not worrying about overpowering the T5. The 3.3/200 can't hardly even match the power of a well built 2.3 SOHC motor. Plus we are road racing, not drag racing.

I will take your word on the bellhousing since I haven't since a real live 3.3 in probably 10-15 years.

As for the early T5 compared to later, there is no difference in the bolt pattern of the case to the bellhousing. The T5 case bolt pattern is the same from 83-95 in the V8 Mustangs and to my knowledge the 94-2010 V6 T5 has the same case bolt pattern too.

If you have a SROD bellhousing and are road racing, you might want to consider a Tremec 3550, TKO, 500, or 600. I understand that you might not need the additional strength, but all of the above will bolt directly to the SROD bellhousing since the SROD and all the listed Tremec's use the Ford Top Loader case bolt pattern.

Good Luck!

Trey

[BRWSaver]

I wish I could find a Tremec 3550 for a couple hundred, but its not gonna happen. What I am most interested in about the T5 is the different diameter pilot and the different length input shafts.

Looking at this chart http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2...p/index2.shtml

There are 2 diameter pilot bearings used (but either is available for the 6) and about 3 different lengths: 7.18" for V8s, 7.41" for 2.3 4cyl, and 7.85 for the later (1994 and up) cars. From what I have seen online the SROD bell is 6.9375" deep.

I guess that answers my question, since a 4cyl T5 only gives me 1/4" of shaft inside the pilot bushing. That can't be enough, right? The 5.0 shaft puts 1/2" in the pilot bushing.

The later one will put nearly 1" in the end of the crank.

[Bungy]

I think you have that backwards. The 2.3 shaft will put more shaft into the pilot bearing/bushing then the V8 as the 2.3 shaft is longer then the V8. The later (94-up) will be in the farthest.
My 2.3 T5 bellhousing is 7 1/2" from the block mounting face to the backside where the transmission bolts onto it.

[BRWSaver]

I think you have that backwards. The 2.3 shaft will put more shaft into the pilot bearing/bushing then the V8 as the 2.3 shaft is longer then the V8. The later (94-up) will be in the farthest.
My 2.3 T5 bellhousing is 7 1/2" from the block mounting face to the backside where the transmission bolts onto it.

You are correct, I forget which figure went with which motor when I started doing the math I posted. So the 5.0 input shaft would put 1/4" in the crank. I know nothing about these things, but that doesn't seem to be enough.

The 2.3 crank must stick out from the block a bit if the bell is 7.5" deep. I guess I will have to pull the transmission out and take a look at how deep the hole is.

[xctasy]

Oh boy, the good thing here is that you can follow the dollar to get a better set of ratios. I didn't expect a nice strong SROD to fudd out on you like that, especially since they aren't under the load of a tree ohh two.

What follows is a rehash of the http://straightsixshootin.weebly.com/index.html


The T5 2.3 is a good gearbox. Another common variant is the junkyard T9 from the Merkur XR4Ti


The T5 to SROD~Toploader depth mismatch is all because Fords 2.3 engines were 2.0 Pinto based, and they ran two sizes, the Dagenham length, and the the longer T9 length which had two versions. My G-d ITS COMPLICATED!

The t9 and T5 5speeds behind the Lima 2.3 crank doesn't have a spacer, but the other Cologne engines(2.0 Pinto with BW 35 auto, and the 2.6/2.8/2.9/4.0 Cologne) have a bolt on crank pilot spacer so the gearbox and bellhousing depth is different by 17 mm. There are short and deep bell housings, with the 1960-1967 2.77 and 1968-1983 3.03"layshaft spacing transmissions full of variations.

The three bellhousing/gearbox combinations I'd look at are:-

1. The 2.77/Merkur 5-speed T9 http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34376

This has a nice, race happy 0.79 overdriven top, but wide 2.3 style intermediate ratios. You can use the 8.5/215mm Alfa Romeo/Mercedes Benz 190E clutch

2. The old 3.03 SROD/TopLoader, which you can get in the more common high mount 3.3 pattern. Low mount 3.3's aren't rare, but the manuals I've seen are all high mount. A manual transmission was never offered behind the big-belled 200.

SROD Fox bell D9BC-6392 CA suits the quadrant clutch cable, and needs the common Toploader~SROD 0.75" adaptor. The common early C7ZA-6394-A can be made to work, but the cable clutch quadrant means the engineering has to be specifically changed for that one to work well. All SR and SROD bells are 0.75" longer (deeper) than the Toploader, a very important point.

3. The E1ZR-6394-AA bellhousing was a rare T4 item, which is T5 compatible without need of a 17 mm SROD~Toploader to T5 stud pattern converter. It has a 60 thou bigger 4.910" diameter than the SROD and Toploader bellhousing hole

There are no pilot bearing issues with the 2.77, as it runs the smaller metric 2.0 Pinto /2.3 Lima pilot. But the SROD~Toploader is bigger, V8/T5 size.

The four bell-housing depths are all because of the shifter location and the difference between the clearances for I4, i6 and V8 engines under the hood. Ford did these changes in response to Borg Warner and Ford of Europe outsourcing forcing Dearborn to make changes to the time honored set 3.03 Toploader and 2.77 derived transmissions; Dearborn were forced to accommodate the Mexican Single Rail and then Borg Warners one size fits all Chevy/Nissan/Lima and 5.0 T4 and T5's, and the 3.3 was going to be an akward sob to fit into the mix.

[xctasy]

The 2.3 runs a 17 mm spacer integrated into the crank, so it comes into the bellhousing more than the 0.5" that is common for I6's and v8's

The stock register for pre 1979's is 6.25, which might be 6.1875" in real money. There is a 62.5 thou block plate with these 4 -speed 3.03" layshaft spacing gearboxes.

See cc-mc's 67 Bell and C6 Block T5 Install

http://s282.photobucket.com/user/cc-...?sort=6&page=1

And cc-mc's Photos and Videos

http://s282.photobucket.com/user/cc-...?sort=3&page=1

Figure Five shows you what happens when you use a proper SROD bell and a C7 bell with CPC 0.75" spacer

[1981capriRS]

You are correct, I forget which figure went with which motor when I started doing the math I posted. So the 5.0 input shaft would put 1/4" in the crank. I know nothing about these things, but that doesn't seem to be enough.

The 2.3 crank must stick out from the block a bit if the bell is 7.5" deep. I guess I will have to pull the transmission out and take a look at how deep the hole is.

what input shaft length was needed for the t5 the 3.3L i have a 81 mercury Capri im thinking of swapping a t5 into

[xctasy]

Post #4, 06-25-2010, 11:21 AM, JACook
http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...er-in-fox-body

SROD bell has the same bolt pattern as a toploader bellhousing, but not the same depth.
The SROD has the same input shaft length as the T5. The toploader input shaft is shorter
by about 11/16". A toploader bell is 6.25" from face to face. The SROD bell is 6.9375".

7.18" for the SROD input shaft, as is the T4, same as the 5.0 Fox V8 T5 as well.



A few things...

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...nversion-PIC-s

RacinNdrummin started the post on this

super4ord noted

E1ZR 1981 Mustang T-4 bell for a 200 6 cyl, 4.91" hole, just one bolt hole away from a t5.
D9 1979 Mustang SROD bell for 200 6 cyl, 4.85" hole doesn't fit the T4 or t5, and needs welding and rebolt centering as well.


The I6 SROD got different RUG style overdrive Toploder ratios to the special narrow intermediate and ultra wide ratio overdriven top of the Fox 5.0 SROD.

I don't think they are shared with the late model 2.8 V6.

The T4 was initially an AMC gearbox, as was the T5.

In 1980 to 1981, the Borg Warner T4 replaced the Tremec SROD on the I6, but it lasted a year before manual I6's were removed as an option.

The 4 cyl T5 became 7.41", with smaller shaft diameter..

The 1980-1983 Tremec t140 is not 5, its a RUC or Rocket based gearbox, but outsourced and redesigned to Ford design specs, so its one to avoid.


So is the T9 from the Merkur XR4TI unless you do some mixing and matching.

The SROD is a dummed down, very lightweight version of the nuclear bomb proof sixties iron Toploader, one of the toughest stock gearboxes you'd ever find.

To get better prices and efficiency, and escape the anti trust rules on componentry, Ford was happy to out source the design requirments to Borg Warner for use by AMC and Ford of the 4 speed RUG, but with a new lightweight casing and internal remote gearchange. SROD, T4/T5 resulted ultimately from that choice.

The 7.18" T4/T5 I6 V8 shaft is 11/16" ( 0.6875") longer at the input shaft than on the iron case Toploader or RUG overdrive version found on V8 and in line sixes.

The RUG was the first downgrade of the Toploader from 1977 to 1978, but it contnued till 1983 in iron case form in F trucks. The SROD and RUG were related, but both were out sourced gearboxes, one via Borg Warner gear, the other Orion and ultimately, Tremec.

The 4 cylinder cars used an initially German design gearbox with the Lima 2.3 OHC, an EAO Cologne design with repitched bores to a much bigger Volvo average bore spacing.There were two bellhousing indexes, one to suit the Pinto and then a change somwhere to suit the Fox Mustang,


4 cylinder Bell housing depths vary because of the Pinto/Mustang II. The imported EAO Pinto 2.0 liter, and the US made Lima 2.3 were origianlly designed to have a crank spacer like the imported German Cologne V6's, so Ford had to mix and match, and everything varies.


Orignally, the import Dagenham, Rocket, Hummer from Ford of Europes British and German plants all had gearboxes used the old US Toploader input shaft length, about 6.5". Then it started to get adjusted to suit the Mustang II, then the Fox body, and if the remote lever was stanadrd, they shifted the input shaft length.

[1981capriRS]

what clutch and fly wheel do you guys think would be needed for that?

[xctasy]

3.03" trans stock 136 teeth. 9.25" clutch as per manual 1978-1981 3.3 liter Fox, 1966-1977 Bronco 170/200 , 1969.5-1973, 1969.5 to 1978 Maverick 170/200 3.03 trans.

Early Bronco guys have an off the shelf 9.25" clutch for the 3.03 layshaft center Toploder trans. Tough as!

https://www.tomsbroncoparts.com/prod...ord-bronco-new

You can fit the Alfa Romeo Alfetta GTV or Mercedes W123/ 190E 215 mm "8.5 inch" clutch if you have the early 2.77 layshaft center trans flywheel machined flat.

[xctasy]

Warning:-

According to Stormin'Norman, don't use the common 3.03" trans stock 136 teeth. 9.25" clutch. Thats because the manual 1978-1981 3.3 liter Fox can only take a 9" clutch,

Aftermarket clutches for the 1966-1977 Bronco 170/200 , 1969.5-1973, 1969.5 to 1978 Maverick 170/200 3.03 trans.and Early Bronco guys have an off the shelf 9.25" clutch for the 3.03 layshaft center Toploder trans.

https://www.tomsbroncoparts.com/prod...ord-bronco-new

But it won't fit inside a D9BC-6392 CA or E1ZR-6394-AA bellhousing

See http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...ng-Information