Latest on I6 24 Hours of Lemons Fairmont Futura

[BRWSaver]

Yeah, I'm trying not to have to piece together anything. But seeing as how you are in so.cal and have a bell housing I may be in touch.

Xctasy seem to think the Dag is a decent box. And I do have a wanted ad up on the Ford Six forum. Someone told me the Dag has the same output as the C4, but I don't know for certain.

[Dean_T]

I'll see what I can find out. I still have the driveshaft from my '65 Mustang that had the Dagenham somewhere and a Fairmont C4 in a shed so it's a matter of test fitting. I also just remembered I have a 3.03 sitting in the shed which I recalled worked fine... 22+ years ago when I drove the Mustang it was in from Santa Barbara to Camarillo. But as you noted, the gear ratios are not optimal and since I have no idea if it is even useable, I'll toss that on the pile too. The problem is to find a 200I6 flat flywheel in decent shape. A block plate wouldn't be hard to fabricate but the clutch fork is an unknown. I seem to recall the only one I got from an I6 looked much like the V8 version but without a parts book, I don't know. And the bolts to bolt everything together.

Your car looked good at Thunderhill, you guys handle turn 5 well enough - unlike quite a few whom went off course or sideways.

Dean T

[xctasy]

Yeah, I'm trying not to have to piece together anything. But seeing as how you are in so.cal and have a bell housing I may be in touch.

Xctasy seem to think the Dag is a decent box. And I do have a wanted ad up on the Ford Six forum. Someone told me the Dag has the same output as the C4, but I don't know for certain.

The internals (gears, mainshaft) of the Dag are the same as the 1972-1982 onwards Capri 3 liter Essex gearbox, and Tickford rated the 5speed version of that at 278 Nm from a stock 2.8/2.9 or 3 liter engine as all they can hack without breaking. Thats 205 lb-ft in a 2800 pound car, towing a trailer or loaded up with 800 pounds (3600 pounds). The gearbox was a starlwart in the old 156 cubic inch Zephyr and Transit and Econoline. Its just the linkage and the tendancy, like the Toploader, to lock up the third gear cluster on the mainshaft, like most four speeds. The C4 in a 4 cylinder is limited by its clutch set, but it'll hack 300 Nm. The six cylinder and base versions in the V8 Mustang II has more plates, and that's 450 Nm. After that, the truck C4 with the big C5 style bellhousing couldn't cope with proving ground durability requirments of the 350 hp Net Boss 351C, or 515 Nm. The FMX could, it was a standout box based on the Borg Warner/Detriot Gear 3-speed. Although the FMX was used only on the lower rent 351 4V HO's, and the C4 on the 290 hp 351W's, they were really strong. Although the FMX was able to handle a Maserati 5 liter Quad Cam engine as its relative, the Borg Warner AS6 8N, the rating was 354 lb-ft net. The net rating of the ,

In context with Fords new automatic rating system, the A4LD was a 440Nm at best, the 5R55 were 550 Nm. Normally, Ford uses the normal GVW and then shockloads it from a stock engines Nm rate (A Nm is 1.356 lb-ft, and the rating is arbitary, but the usual factor of safety is from lb-ft to the Ford Newton Meter rating is 2.2)

An engine, like perhaps a 250 with 205lb-ft engine torque, doesn't have a Ford tested torque rating, as manuals can be stripped easy as pie compared to an auto. An auto takes crap that a manual won't, but in endurance racing a Dagenham would be less likely to give up the ghost than a C4...auto's have more likelyhood of fluid loss or friction material or torque converter or pump failure, even though they have less components. You can rest a 4 speed manual, but a 3 speed auto is always working, always flowing hot fluid. And it sucks up 33% of the power, while a 4-speed is down to 25%. So you get another 7 hp at the back wheels with a 150 hp net engine running a Single Rail or T5 verses a non lockup clutch C4, but requires 10 more hp at the flyhwheel to have the same rear wheel horsepower with an auto.

[xctasy]

From http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=34376

The N type transmission was the last follow on from the Dagenham, the Mk III Consul/Zephyr/Zodiac 62-66. Its predesessor was the Type 5 Ford trans (72-82), which still has the hard dimensions and componentry of the Dagenham; you can use 90% of that stuff in the earlier box, even rework the awfull 2.2:1 second gear with a much nicer 1.85:1. The N type (T9) is not the same as the Dagenham and Type 5, but it uses the same hard dimensions. Its peak torque load in a 2800 pound car which isn't towing trailers is 278 Nm (205 lb-ft) according to Tickford. The most of the earlier Type 5 gear clusters, front input shaft is interchangable with the Dagenham , although there were a few differences between Pinto/Essex/Cologne

With the T9, the 2.3/2.6/2.8/2.9 Cologne V6 ran a spacer, the Pinto 1300/1600/1800/2000 Sierra/Cortina didn't, the 2.5 and 3.0 Essex V6 didn't have a spacer. The spacer is 0.625" (16 mm or so) and that's where a 10 mm adaptor comes in handy. The gearbox isn't a sweet shifter, but dimesnions, the ratios and torque capability are perfect for an early I6 Stang or Falcon

[BRWSaver]

Your car looked good at Thunderhill, you guys handle turn 5 well enough - unlike quite a few whom went off course or sideways.

Dean T

You must have missed the lap where one of our drivers went off at the top of the hill at 5 and all the way down the other side in the dirt. We were lucky nothing got bent and the car stayed pointed down hill. If he had gotten sideways it would have been a barrel roll for sure.

[BRWSaver]

So are you saying the 4 speed in a Capri shares some parts with the Dag? I will have to go look around the junk yards. Capris turn up there pretty frequently and no one seems to want them.

[Firebolt]

Sorry, that should actually be positive caster. I moved the top of the strut back towards the fire wall. Anyway, the Fox chassis has next to nothing for caster, and too little causes the car to have less negative camber when the wheel is turned, which is exactly why you don't want. Anyway we are tip-toeing toward a fast balanced car.

[xctasy]

So are you saying the 4 speed in a Capri shares some parts with the Dag? I will have to go look around the junk yards. Capris turn up there pretty frequently and no one seems to want them.

Yes, the gear clusters, main shaft. There are two types, a German and an English box, but the 3.0 V6 and 2.6/2.8 shared the same gearbox after a certain point. They used terms like the Hummer for the little 2000 and 2300, and then the RS 2000/Pinto based gearbox was used. I'm a bit confused, because we use various different types of 4 speed on 2000 Pintos and 2300 Cololgnes, but the big 2800 and 3000 v6's had a Dagenham internal structure with a Granada Mk I gearbox which hit town in 1972, and it was a remote selector version of the Dag with a higher geared 2nd. Great gearbox.

The V6's ran the same amount of teeth on the flywheel as the Explorer/Ranger/Capri V6 manual or C3 auto, 138, so you could use A junked C3 Auto bellhousing, and use the Cologne V6 clutch, shove any four speed on it with just an adaptor plate, and use an internal Mazda throw out clutch. There's no limit to what you can do with a gearbox or engine to trade. My mate put a steel case Supra Turbo 5 speed on a Nissan 280 ZX L28 auto bellhousing in his 6 cylinder Mk 1 Escort 2-door, an effectice RS 2800, and it was very easy to do, and the centre pull out clutch was cheap to fit up.

More options to throw in the hat...

[Funky Cricket]

Go to fordsix.com Tons of advice and parts in the forums for cheap. They have done everything to them over there. I am huge fan of the 200. You should be able to get a cheap 4-cyl t5 and parts to mount it pretty cheap.

[xctasy]

Funky Cricket, more power to ya. We're like lots of other people here. I have an I6 Fox, but also have had other US Fords, so one Fox community isn't enough if you've got an Econoline, Maverick or S197 whatever else Ford made from Fox origin parts.

BRWSaver has been the worlds most enterprising poster at FS. In 64 posts, he's extracted the most info I've ever seen. He's here, like I am, because the total number Fox I6's that are emerging from the woodwork are greater than even the worlds pervalent classic, the T and L code 64.5-73 Mustangs. In terms of totals, even allowing for scrapage, the T, B and X code I6 3.3 Foxes are around everywhere, and Ford Six is only just learning how H-U-G-E the 450 000 cars a year at peak Fox body platfrom was from 1978 to 2005. Here's notice...the Four Eyed Pride Forum has got the best Fox info for any of the seven common 2.3 Lima, 2.4 Turbo Diesel, 2.8, 3.3, 3.8, 4.2, 5.0 factory engines, and a frame work and technical knowledge in excess of any forum anywhere.

At Ford Six, life doesn't just stop or start at Foxes, so BRWSaver now knows that basically any Fox body or German Capri or V6 Pinto/Bobcat 4 or 5 speed can be made to fit any I6 bellhousing from 1960 to 1983. He knows that the Fox clutch set up has to be used, so he's stuck with a D9 or E1 bellhousing, or a 3.03 style Toploade can be made to suit.

He also knows that the British Zephyr based Dagenham used in the early Mustang and Econoline in an early 2.77 Dag form can be modified to suit the gearboxes it spawned. A bewildirng bunch of similar Pinto/Bobcat/German Kent/Cologne/Essex 60 degree boxes in splendorus array, 4-speed, 5 speed, 7 speed over drive. So his "crazy like a Fox" brain is already in overdrive, working it all out.. So terms like Bullet, Rocket, Hummer, Single Rail, T-9, Type 1,2,3,4 SROD, or RUC, RAD, Toploader and 105E he'll know all about.

The key is that he has a 24 Hours at Lemons sub 500 buck budget, and he's used all his American smarts to pool tegether a 4 speed manual which has the smallest gap between third and top gear. A T5 is not the best option, but if he has to, he'll use it under sufferance.

His perference is to get a high mount engines bellhousing and gearbox in one hit, and because he knows the I6 stuff is useless to a 2.3 or 5.0 owner, he's just waiting around untill "bang!", situation yet again shows him some favour. Based on how many I6's get pensioned off for a stove hot Turbo 2.3 or 5.0, I'd say his chances of getting a whole package from a T,B or X code high mount blue rocker cover IJ204 3.3 are pretty darn good.

The Fox 3.3 is the worlds must fun boat anchor...

[BRWSaver]

Yeah, I have a couple of nibbles on available transmissions or bellhousings. I'm waiting on a quote with shipping from one member here who has a whole SROD set up, plus another box full of spare motor parts he'll throw in for free. Looks like we may go with the SROD, mostly because that is what has popped up. Our motor's power now has us knocking on the self imposed 5000rpm redline at the end of the straightaways of the faster tracks, so being able to drop 1000rpms by shifting to OD sounds good. Otherwise we are going to have to do another rear end swap to keep the motor from reving out of its sweet spot.

The other nice thing about the SROD is it is still pretty available in junk yards, and seems to have a better reputation for durability than the T5, which is the most available, but most fragile transmission when pressed hard.

[BRWSaver]

By the way, another Lemons racer has a Ford Futura just like mine, but he went much further with his. He swapped the entire 4.6 modular motor drivetrain into his from a wrecked Mustang. Unfortunately by the time I got in touch with him the SROD or T4 had already been junked. He is looking for the bellhousing though, because he thinks it wasn't junked with the motor/transmission. That one would be free with shipping, if he finds it.

[xctasy]

I knew you'd be using your smarts to make an even better deal. Good on you!

[BRWSaver]

Yeah, with the overdrive 4 speed, and a roll cage already in it, I may take it to El Mirage next year to see just how fast it will go. 120mph at least. I know the current records for stock body cars with this size motor are all held by several teams with Chevy Monza fastbacks, they have really well developed aerodynamics.

[Funky Cricket]

Thanks for the update xctasy. I was at work and didn't jump over to the FS forums to see if he had posted there. I'm still lurking, but I don't have a project right now. I found a picture of my old 4 eye capri with a 200 that originally got me posting here and on FS and I was bombing around here a bit.

Keep us updated. I've had the same thought about a 200 for lemons, cause you can get them free and they are hard to break.

[BRWSaver]

Keep us updated. I've had the same thought about a 200 for lemons, cause you can get them free and they are hard to break.

We've already broken 2. Well, we broke 1 and wore the other one out. The broken one got hot, but was still spun up to 5000rpm, then about 4 of the 6 rods bearings spun.

I now have a freshened 200 that was the original one out of the Fairmont (new pistons, rings, bearings, timing set, valve job, milled head, 264 cam, home made header, 2bbl Rochest 2GC carb mounted on a machined and JB Welded log) and a stock 1968 Mustang motor as a back up. The 68 is going to get the head from the previously rebuilt motor we just spun the bearings in, and maybe the 264 cam, if I decide to go to a 274 in the freshened up motor.

I really want the 274 duration cam from Clay Smith, but with no more lift than the 264 because I want to keep the springs from getting tired.

[xctasy]

Tech details are 1.65 rocker ratio

http://www.classicinlines.com/images...es/264-12.html

http://www.classicinlines.com/images...es/274-12.html


480 lift each.

Just get the best 289 or 302 springs. The least one, the softest, that does the job


The sale site says 441 thou for 264, and 450 for the 274, each 1.5;1 rocker ratio, not 1.65, but the tech sheet reads differently, 1.65, not 1.5:1


Use the 274!

[xctasy]

Yeah, with the overdrive 4 speed, and a roll cage already in it, I may take it to El Mirage next year to see just how fast it will go. 120mph at least. I know the current records for stock body cars with this size motor are all held by several teams with Chevy Monza fastbacks, they have really well developed aerodynamics.

Unless you do a special Montecarlo style Nascar rear window to take the blunt edge effect off the backlight, and an SVO front clip, you won't get to a Monza style cdA (coefficent of drag times frontal area).

The Chev Monza, the Opel GT and the Plymouth Superbird are the undesputed kings of the Bonneville Salt (or Maxton cement!).

Its not hard to get 0.28 for drag on them, but the Chev Monza and Opel GT are also really narrow and can be built low.

The easiest solution is to put it in a Fox Mustang, and use the SVO nose cone with a Capri Buble back hatch as has been done by others on the Salt. Based on the frontal area, the Mustang is better than a smoothed up 83-88 Fox bird. The bubble back takes about 0.02, maybee 0.03 off the cd. You could go to 0.33.

The Capri has signifcantly more frontal area at 69.1" than the 67" wide Fox Mustang.

Total horsepower requirement is based on my Rule 5 data.

The hp required for an given speed is calculated below but you must know the tire size in mm, the cd and FA.

Formulae for power due to drag and drivetrain loss is then able to be worked out with ease.

cd is the drag factor. A Pinto is about 0.48, an intermediate Falcon (66-70) about 0.48, a Thunderbird 0.35, a Fox Mustang 0.44 or 0.36 if its got an SVO body kit. Early 60's XK Falcons are quite slippery before the T-bird roof get things messed up...more like 0.40 than the 0.48 or so of a 65 Falcon. Early Sprints were likely to have the least drag.

FA is the frontal area. Then multiply cd by Frontal Area Note that a Pinto is about 20.2 ft2, an early (late 60's) intermediate Torino/Fairlane is 24.2 ft2, and a fat bodied Mustang (71-73) about the same. A Fox Mustang is around 20.8 ft2. A Maverick could be as low as 21 ft2 for an early tudoor, or over 21.5 ft2 for a post 74 dodgem bumper number.

cd*FA *mph*mph*mph * 1.27
. 147733

Then add tire loss

mm*lb*mph*8
. 58 036 680

The 'mont is unable to get down that low unless you cut and shut.

The formula about will determine the minimum amount of hp for a manual transmission car. The formula is self adjusting asside from the power consumption form the transmission. Test's show 1.27 is the factor for a 7.5 to 9" diff and a T5 gearbox, so it'll suit any manual trans and a 7.5 ot 8.8" diff.

[xctasy]

You'd need 191.5 flywheel horsepower to get first gear (130 mph) at Bonneville in a Fox-mont.

0.45*21.5*130*130*130*1.27
. 147733

=182.73 bhp net at flywheel

Then 185*2650*130*8
. 58036680
=8.78 bhp net extra at flywheel to cope with 185 section tires under 2650 pounds of weight.

And that's where your 191.5 hp comes from.

If you shave off the drag to 0.33 with an SVO front clip, filled out rear glass house, and perhaps an undercar tray, you'd get exactly another 14 mph, or 144 mph out of her.

Gearing dependant, of course.

[BRWSaver]

Oh, I know it will never set I record. I just want to do it because it already has a roll cage and other safety gear in it. Swapping the motor into a better shaped car defeats the purpose. I can't afford to build another car.

[xctasy]

Cool. I think you should aim for 1st gear, 130 mph.

Its just the cam and carb and transmission that will make it happen.


The use of an auto looses quite a few mph, while a manual makes a better top speed.

What carb system do you intend on running, and what is your best estimate of quarter mile time or top speed on TFHL tour.

You'd be very suprised how easy it is to get 130 clonks out of a 0.45 drag factor car..especially when its quite narrow and low. The Fox Mont isn't a total barn door, just close too it!

We've got cars doing 205 hp still running a Rochester style 2-bbl carb, 274 cam, and EO head and just a carb adaptor and good exhast system.

205 HP will give a 0.45 drag factor car an easy 130 mph with a manual trans. You can do it!

[gmatt]

BRW. I PM'd you with an ad for a 4spd.

[BRWSaver]

We raced again this past weekend. At the end of 6 hours of racing Saturday evening we were leading the rest of the worst cars in the Class C battle by 5 laps. We were running down 2 Porsche 914s with our 200 six powered Futura.

30 minutes into Sunday morning racing we throw a rod with a huge bang and a big cloud of smoke, complete with a hole right thru the side of the block.

We did a 4 hour motor swap to put an unknown back up motor into the car. We made it back out on the track only to have the rotten freeze out plugs leak all the fluid out of the cooling system. We replaced the 3 easiest ones with the old ones from the blown motor, and added a bottle of stop leak to the radiator because the one between the motor and tranny was dripping. The car came back in a few laps later still running hot. While we were adding water and contemplating coming back to the pits every 3 laps one of the 1" plugs in the cylinder head popped out completely!

So, anyone near L.A. have a 3.3/200 motor they are pulling out of a Fox body car? The back up motor is not drilled for the rear sump dipstick, so even after I fix its issues I would never want to race in it all day without checking the oil.

So all our trouble swapping motors only to get 10 laps or so we were awarded the "I Got Screwed" trophy.

[cb84capri]

wow, i guess you can kill an inline 6!

cale

[xctasy]

Oil stravation and plasticine rod bolts are the only major issues with the ford six.

Your sump just needs an external dip stick like the pan fill C4, an outer tube based on the existing Fox sump, then you can use any 3.3.

The sump pickup is always loose on the Fox 3.3's. Factory mounts are sub standard.

I'd suggest four things.

1.A windage tray like the Aussie Hi Engergy sump for I6's

See High Energy Oil Pans

http://www.highperformanceworld.com....ergy_oil_pans/

They no longer make a round body sump for 1960 to 1965 Falcons, or the neat Fox body compliant Cortina 200/250 and 3.3/4.1 sumps which came with a windadage tray from the factory

Now they only make a 1971 to 1992 250 I6 sump in two part numbers, which is only for the X bodies (1969-1973 250 Mustang, 71-77Maverick, 75-80 Granada/Monarch/Varsailies), and the Aussie 250 sump won't fit the us 250 without modification.

Super pan Ford 250 6-cyl Non X-Flow
Item Code: HE2010
Price: AU$502.00

Super pan Ford 250 6-cyl X-Flow XC-XE
Item Code: HE2011
Price: AU$375.00

6A Short St
Dandenong, VICTORIA, 3175
Australia (03) 9794 0950

There are no internal veiws of their I6 Ford pans, but the Cleveland 351 pan is simialr internally see http://vicperformanceparts.com.au/in...product_id=181

I6 X-flow (Aussie 250 version of US 250 for leaf sping X-bodies)http://vicperformanceparts.com.au/in...product_id=189


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oil-Pan-suit...-/330622563105



2. Baffles

3.crank scaper
4. And a couple of Briggs and Straton sectioned gas tanks welded onto the outside of the stock Fox sumps to pump up the oil capcity.

You can then over fill the sump a full inch on the dip stick.

If there are 6 quarts of oil in an I6, about 4 quarts are flying around the sump past 4000 rpm, and piston, head gasket and rod failure are more relateed to a steady rise in oil temperature from cavitation from a oil pickup sucking air than anything else.

In the early days of Aussie sedan racing, people were looking to having to run an oil cooler often looked at better sump windage trays and baffles and when they ran spark inducing 40 thou clearance windage trays, crank scrapers and baffles, they coluld loose 50 deg F oil temperature, more power, and a sudden reduction on engine scrapage. Ford Production race engineers cut a perspex window into the passanger firewall in 1972, and viewed the oil sump pickup via a glass plate in the sump. Much to their horror, they found that on a certain race track, the sump pickup on the Falcon sedan got air 50% of the time doing 90 mph average speed laps on a certain 3.8 mile circuit. Their engine scrapage rate was huge, and the key was to build sumps that esured the pickup was always submerged.

You need to do the same.

The Aussie Torana XU1 ran a baffle

http://imgc.classistatic.com/cps/bln...997l9h_20.jpeg

, hinged sump,

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j3.../Alfssump1.jpg

http://media.photobucket.com/image/x...8/Alfssump.jpg


and some other versions ran a special capacity extender

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/carin...ock/1006418485