Latest on I6 24 Hours of Lemons Fairmont Futura

[BRWSaver]

We have never noticed any reduction in oil pressure, not under acceleration, not under braking, not in the corners. It never got hot. It blew up 3 green flag laps into Sunday morning, after 3 or so yellow flag laps, so it should have been fully warmed up. I had checked the oil just before the start, and topped it off to its 1/2 quart overfull level.

I suspect it was just the lousy factory rod bolts that let go. Also I only just discovered that 1978-9 motors could have had cast iron, cast steel, or nodular iron rods. I will not be building another motor without forged rods and ARP rod bolts

[BRWSaver]

http://youtu.be/Xq-aYNkSwtE

So here's what killed the motor. Our driver thought he was in D, but actually had it in 2nd. I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did redlining at 8000rpm (according to the factory tach)

[cb84capri]

oh man!!! that driver had better be supplying the beers for awhile!

cale

[Anlushac11]

There is also a big difference in rod quality over the years. Earlier 170's and 200s ran forged steel rods while mid 70's ran cast iron rods. They used nodular iron rods for awhile and went back to cast iron rods. When I built my 200 I bought six reconditioned forged rods for a 170 off Ebay, polished the beams, and then the shop added ARP rod bolts. The engine was custom balanced on assembly. Short of getting custom rods I dont know what I could have done to improve that area.

A windage tray/scraper/stud girdle was one thing I wanted to add but ran out of time and money on.

[BRWSaver]

I would guess, based on the abuse our motor has taken so far, that anything more than stock forged rods with ARP bolts would be overkill. Unless you plan on stuffing the motor full of nitrous, a turbo or a supercharger there is no way to develop enough power with this motor to hurt it. The intake just can't flow enough. Now if you were using the Classic Inlines aluminum head, an Australian head with removable manifold, or 6 side draft bike carbs (or 3 dual throat Webbers) with the stock log cut off you just can't get enough air into it. We rev ours to 5000rpm typically, but I'm sure we could go to 6000 without hurting it much.

[xctasy]

Yep. An article in Australian Street Machine in 1990 discussed the development of the 2V head and the later cross flow engines in some detail.

In 1970, when the 2V head allowed triple Carb 250's in the Fords Geelong research lab to run to 7500rpm, and again in 1983 when the aftermarket Cross flow EFI Turbos pushed 260 kw or 350 hp at 5000 rpm, the "let loose factor" for the 5.88" forged rods used in all 1971 to 1990 OHV 4.1 liter I6's with aftermarket bolts was about 350 hp, that's when the rods beam failed under extreme load. Those rods were the same as the US 250 rods until the reverting to cast iron rods in the late 70's.

The XR6 Falcon bottom end used OHV 250/US 250 spec forged rods, and could only go to 221 hp at 4600 rpm with those rods with stock rod bolts.

I'd say a good set of rod bolts could upgrade an engine for another 130 odd hp. Forged rods instead of cast, probably another 100 hp on a stock 85 to 92 flywheel engine, allow a safe 185 to 192 on a good 3.3 with better rod bolts.

I don't have much faith in a cast conrod. I'd say good ARP rod bolts and forged verses cast would be the same, and like a lovely model, taken together, any two postive attributes don't as much as add together, but multiply...

[tomswheels]

Love the vids! Are you going to stay with the 6?

[xctasy]

Love the vids! Are you going to stay with the 6?

Me too, love those videos.

I'll bet he will continue with the I6, certainly if a stock block, head and trans period touring 1961 Aussie XK Falcon (roundbody) car with free manifold, cam and carbs can hit 280 ponies with just a little four bearing 170

See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QTgb4knAuI

30 extra cubes, a few donated parts and BRWSaver's smarts= Annihilation of All Else.

This is proof positive of what I've said for ages...moving towards more of a port on port style carburation, Ak Miller style, http://www.classicinlines.com/HA1.asp makes huge power with not a lot more revs. The Knott Falcon runs fully port on port, with six venturis on six ports to six cylinders, and thats how the power improves so much. Ak Millers set ups were almost totally stock engines, with 260 degree cams and two or four intakes serving six cylinders. Each time two extra runners were added, rear wheel hp went up 10 hp.

[BRWSaver]

Yes, we are staying with the six. I spent too much time tracking down a bellhousing and SROD to swap into it to give up and put a V8 in it now. Plus putting all that extra weight on the front wheels would mean starting all over again from a handling standpoint. The V8 weighs 150-200 more than the six, if internet sources are to be believed.

I think I found a 3.3 out of a Fox car which was recently rebuilt on craigslist. I will swap on the 2bbl modified head I have. I think the 264 cam we were running in the motor we blew up is going to find its way into our back up motor (Bone stock 68 with a milled head/valve job and the intake opened up to fit a bigger 1bbl). Since we tend to never see less than 2500rpm on the track I think we can make more power with more duration.

Not sure if I stated this earlier but at the end of a day or racing on Saturday we were in 1st place in our class (class C - the worst), about 3rd among the class B cars, and 20th overall. If we continue to be just as fast on track & don't blow up we may be able to crack the top ten by this time next year. We also had gotten a black flag Saturday morning for sloppy driving and were off the track for 5 laps then too.

That is what endurance racing is all about, its not doing 1 big thing right, its doing hundreds of little things right all day long.

[xctasy]

Ah, well that's a relief!


Time to put a set of triples on it then, like are going on mine!

[Anlushac11]

Car was sounding good...right til engine let go. Seems like a lot of the smaller cars dart past in the corners. You guys have 9", 10" or 11" front brakes?

You can swap in 87-93 5.0L spindles and brakes for a ugrade and use Lincoln calipers with the metal 70mm pistons. Would give you similar to a SVO front brakes.

On back you can find a Fox body station wagon rear 10" drun setup. You can drill radial holes in the drum face that has same effect as cross drilled rotors. It made a noticeable improvement but disc brakes eclipsed drilled drum technology.

http://www.chtopping.com/CustomRod4/

That would improve front and rear brakes while maintaining a stock look.

[BRWSaver]

We are running 5.0 front brakes. That driver is our least experienced. Our better guys typically out brake the big powerful cars (and timid drivers) in all the corners. We are sticking with this brake set up until we get a lot more powerful (next season?) at which time we will have to do a 5 lug conversion.

Our biggest issue was the gap between 2nd and 3rd gear in the C4. We are moving to a SROD which should close that a little, and allow us an overdrive gear for cruising and saving the motor.

[xctasy]

100 mph at 8000 rpm, well who cares. At least the I6 got a work out, you trained new blood, and your back on the wagon.

PM me if you'd like to know about my new triple carb set up, I think you could get an easy 230 hp with the right attention to detail.

Very keen to help you meet your racing budget.

[BRWSaver]

So I pulled the motor apart, and it is the most blown of any motor I have ever seen.

http://piledriverz.com/2013/01/13/we-really-blew-it/

[cb84capri]

that's some incredible damage!

cale

[cb84capri]

just saw your picture posted here:

http://imgur.com/r/Justrolledintotheshop/mmRJY

cale

[xctasy]

So here we are at Sears Point racing our 200 six powered futura, and we're stuck in 4th gear. Anyone in the bay area have an srod they want to sell? This may be it for us this weekend.
Woody
310-880-0956

How did you make it work in 1st, 2nd, and 4th? So third was out, hugh? I guess it was like running a wide ratio 3 speed with a 3:1 diff.

Your videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=5mjCyq3VyiM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=wjI701qiBjI

were stunning, and your posts gave me real time hope you'd get it into gear.

You'll fix the SROD, but lookes to me like your now set to get 5 liter style grunt from a 3.3 package.

You can make a 371 Olds 88 J2 Rochester 2 jet tri power, without the Vac outer carb actuation. The 2-jets can take Holley 2300 series 350/500 cfm 2bbl throttle shafts modified to suit, which then allows you to swap back to passenger side throttle actuation using the automatic choke as a spindle mount, while still keeping the curb idle on the driver side.

The rule with carbs is that the throttle shaft cannot take load across it, but it can be changed without having to reverse the carbs to point back to the firewall. When you triple 2-bbl the right hand carb any small or big thinwall Ford 200 or 300 six, there isn't the room for a simple driver side lever like there is on tri-power 326/389/421/428 Ponchos, 371 Olds and Ford 289/352/390/406/427's. That's why no one does three by 2-bbls, too hard. The J2 is the best example of how to link the left side throttle to the right with a 'link bar'.









Drill the biggest holes you can on the later big log head



Hog out that log,

Add three alloy mounts like these







And copy the Pontiac OHC 230/250 Tri Power set up, but make them synchronized from curb idle to wide open throttle, and you'll get 220 hp with just a 274 degree cam.





http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Tri...smobile1553292

[PaceFever79]

Rocket porn!

[BRWSaver]

Okay, sorry for not posting sooner.

We had a lousy weekend. From the time the green flag dropped 3rd gear in our SROD 4 speed was only where you expected it to be 2 out of 3 times. I did an hour of green flag racing in the car steering with 1 hand and holding the shifter in 3rd with the other. The next driver went out and promptly got it stuck in 4th. We pulled in and fixed it in about 30 minutes only to have the next guy also get it stuck in 4th on his 2nd lap.

Next began a frantic search for a replacement, of any sort, for a reasonable amount of money. Even with the clock running I wasn't about to pay $500 for the 1 we found within 50 miles from a salvage yard. The craigslist seller with one listed for $300 did not answer. And the CL guy with an earlier 3.03 3 speed wasn't going to be home for hours, and didn't know what the overall length of it was. Drilling and tapping the bell housing and finding a T5 locally was the best idea, but even that seemed like a lot of work.

So we cracked open the SROD again and had a look. the 3rd gear syncros were chewed up, and all the forcing it into 3rd had bent the 3rd/4th shift fork. A hammer, wrench and socket extension soon straightened that back to nearly normal. But we still didn't trust it to not over shoot 4th and get stuck again. My theory was that the steel pivot which moved it from 3rd to 4th had worn a groove in the aluminum case, or bronze shift fork, and therefore things were moving too far once they had some momentum in them. So we pulled out the shaft that the fork rode on and machined a couple of washers to slip on it and positively stop the shift fork (previously only the pivot hitting the case served as a stop).

Well we didn't get 3rd gear back, after all the abuse I'm not surprised, but we were able to race all day Sunday shifting from 2nd to 4th. Our lap best times were actually 12 seconds better that last year on the same track with the C4 (and just a 1bbl, and stock cam).

Toward the end of the day our temp gauge started to spike, then returned to normal after left handers. Pulling into the pits it seemed there was no water in the radiator (otherwise we would not have been able to open it while hot). Anyone have any ideas? We did not seem to have a bad head gasket, there was no white smoke.

[BRWSaver]

How did you make it work in 1st, 2nd, and 4th? So third was out, hugh? I guess it was like running a wide ratio 3 speed with a 3:1 diff.

Your videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=5mjCyq3VyiM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=wjI701qiBjI

were stunning, and your posts gave me real time hope you'd get it into gear.

You'll fix the SROD, but lookes to me like your now set to get 5 liter style grunt from a 3.3 package.

You can make a 371 Olds 88 J2 Rochester 2 jet tri power, without the Vac outer carb actuation. The 2-jets can take Holley 2300 series 350/500 cfm 2bbl throttle shafts modified to suit, which then allows you to swap back to passenger side throttle actuation using the automatic choke as a spindle mount, while still keeping the curb idle on the driver side.

That is all well and good, but I don't see how having 3x2 1 1/2" holes, choked down to 1 3/4 because that is all you can fit on the log (if even that) gives me more air flow than just running 3 Holley 1bbls with 1 3/4" throats. Plus I already have 3 of the stock carbs.

[xctasy]

Toward the end of the day our temp gauge started to spike, then returned to normal after left handers. Pulling into the pits it seemed there was no water in the radiator (otherwise we would not have been able to open it while hot). Anyone have any ideas? We did not seem to have a bad head gasket, there was no white smoke.

Q1 There is either a radiator core or hose leak or steam leak from the gasket on the passenger side were the water flows on the log head. Happened to mine, and couldn't figure out the coolant loss because its pure, clean, unadulterated steam, baby.

Q2 As for the log head, even the small log with 1.3" ports and 1.3" hole can have three 2" holes tungstan carbide or diamond drilled using a cement saw. Then you just devcon/jb weld a large 2-bbl alloy adaptor to cover the lack of wall thickness as the holes. Even with three 1.83" holes and alloy or steel plate dividing the inlet tract, you can feed six 1.3" inch ports with the equivalent of six 1.3" holes, and get a huge performance boost. Those pictures show two close ups of Aussie log heads from the reddy orange colored one (1968 221/3.6 Falcon) and the black one (1973 250 (4.1 liter ngines);they both have 1.65" holes stock, but you can rout out the cast iron inner hole to 2" without a worry, and that's what the black log head with the adaptor has had done to it. The outer ones can also be taken out to that much, but you have to either weld, or flitch plate with alloy or use JB Weld/Devcon to buttress a stock Holley Weber 5200 adaptor, which just happens to allow a small and large flange Rochester 2 Jet to fit. Port makes performance, and just three 1.83" holes with splitters to allow them to run like independent runner carbs will make a triple carb Rochester equipped Ford honk like Hades.

See http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=65023 for myearly splayed adaptor. The Rochester is a Holley Weber 5200 or Weber DGEV.DGAS sized carb.

When developing the flow rate upgrades to my triple Weber 32/36 engine, I grabbed three Taiwanese PO5-BX magnetic paper clip containers from Datamore



Sorry about the non constitutional French units that follow.

The PO5-BX were basically a plastic drum which is 57 mm outside diameter with a thin 0.5 mm wall thickness for 56 mm internal diameter. Its 54 mm tall, but has a rebate for a 48mm internal diameter lid which has a detachable iron magnet inside.

The lid is 24 mm thick, and fits on top of a rebated plastic container.

Most importantly, it has a 54 by 56 tappered knife edge splitter which is what I'm copying in metal for the NCHO-6V adaptor.


These were trial fitted for size on the three discharge points of my small 48 cc chamber C1 log head.



I've used a 2" concrete cutting tool to create a space for three steel 2" inserts with a cross sectional area equal to three 1.83" carbs. The internal porting is still large enough to make power, and there only needs to be the right cam, carburation and exhast to yield power, even with the stock 1.649" intake and 1.380" exhast sizes. Head gasket is stock Appco AP630, standard Ford Falcon 1966 XR and 1975 XB for 188/200/221/250 cube Aussie log head engines.

At present, the carb jetting for each Cortina 32/36 DGAV carb is re-jetted with a 1:1 linkage. Each carb is positioned as per Stovebolts method. With the staged carb, the arrangement splits the air fuel evenly from between cylinder 1 and 2 for carb 1, between 3 and 4 for carb 2, and 5 and 6 for carb 3. When the 2300 Holley is used, the three adaptors are replaced with internal splits swung around 90, but the carb remains in the same position.

The camshaft is to be a custom kind, but is presently the stock 1982 Fairmont item.

Q3. That SROD was a dang pest. What are your options given that if it was working, you'd have a set of 930 Turbo Porsche ratios?

[BRWSaver]

I'm fairly certain I can get 3 2gc carbs on there mounted sideways, the way the current one is, with 3 direct 2bbl mounting pads. I would have to fab up some sort of 3 into 1 throttle cable arrangement. This would either be some sort of bell crank pivot, likely mounted on the driver side of the motor, or else just a 3-1 motorcycle type cable from Flanders (who are local and have been making cables for something like 75 years)

But, I now have something like 6 heads for my 2 motors. 3 big log (1 is bare and has had the carb plate hacked up) 3 small. I was thinking of making a 6 bike carb set up out of one of them and a 3 1bbl set up out of another. I could easily put 3 big holes in the tri-power set up and make both 2bbl and 1bbl mounting pads out of a big hunk of aluminum.

[xctasy]

I'm fairly certain I can get 3 2gc carbs on there mounted sideways, the way the current one is, with 3 direct 2bbl mounting pads. I would have to fab up some sort of 3 into 1 throttle cable arrangement. This would either be some sort of bell crank pivot, likely mounted on the driver side of the motor, or else just a 3-1 motorcycle type cable from Flanders (who are local and have been making cables for something like 75 years)

But, I now have something like 6 heads for my 2 motors. 3 big log (1 is bare and has had the carb plate hacked up) 3 small. I was thinking of making a 6 bike carb set up out of one of them and a 3 1bbl set up out of another. I could easily put 3 big holes in the tri-power set up and make both 2bbl and 1bbl mounting pads out of a big hunk of aluminum.

Yep, I think you've got a plan of attack! I know you'll use some form of good old Southern Californian Hot Rod mentality to your conquest for speed, and none of it is too high end. I can't think of an easier engine to bolt a batalion of breathers to. Jack Collins at Ford Six Performance put six RC 40's on his 200 X-flow six, but then decided to opt out of tuning them because there are so many variables to needle and idle circuits, plus the need to restrict fuel pressure to 2.4 psi and make a linkage that works well without binding. It was an insanely quick combination, even with a C4, becasue it was in a 2000 pound Locost 6. He then went to two Jaguar style Stromberg CDS 175 carbs, and that's how it stayed since 2007. Either way, the combination of the US 200 block, an Aussie 280 degree hydraulic cam and a small 1.3" port head that flows 145 cfm at 25 "H20, and a small cap Duraspark II distributor takes a lot of beating. Carb wise, anything calibrated that has six 40 mm venturis, high intensity Clay Smith 274 cam with 460 lift on the right lobe centre, you should be able to genrate 295 hp at about 6600 rpm if you can get as clean shot to the ports. A you just need some nice rod bolts with a humble a blister packed forged rod block rebuild and some decent pistons.

I'll keep you posted on what I'm doing, but I'm pretty certain the three Rochesters in any form you can manage will do the trick with more ease than six RC40's. The tools for jetting down a Rochester 2-bbl are the same as running three 2300 series Holley 7448[350 cfm], 4412[500 cfm] or 6425[650 cfm] 2-bbls in isolated runner form, and guys like FSP's Frenchtown Flyer have done this before on the 300 cube big sixes. The Rochester is just like a Holley internally, with better quality and a bit less accessible, but the information is there to make three 2-bbls with six idle circuits work just a seamlessly as a tri power with staged outer carbs, and just sticking a fuse wire in the PVCR , running 2.0 power valves and blocking down the air bleeds allows you to get any thing jetted and running. There are also close limit Holley jets you can fit with a little effort, and all the info you need in independent runner system calibrations are right here. I've covered it all, with jet flow rates and screen dumps for different engine and carb venturi combinations, and comparisons from known Weber 40 to 45 mm DCOE carb flows with any venturi size from 24 to 40 mm, and they a related back to those of Holley 2300 series 2-bbl carbs. Since the Rochester is so similar, just with smaller venturis that Holley in stock form, calibration is just interpolation of that data. Flow rates are similar, and a whole industry of increasingly smart ovsl track guys have applied 350, 500 and 650 logic to this highly capable but very under-rated carb. Not like a 13 second GTO with Tri-power was ever in need of anything else but six Rochesters, eh?

See http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=31668

The emulsion tubes can be altered like on a Weber carb. With some work, IR style twin Dominator 4500 booster venturis can be fitted with just a remachining from a competent jeweler to control fuel standoff if you plan to go over 274 degrees on the cam.

Good fortune, I know you've got the smarts to drop in any multiple carb combo in the world, and make that 33 sit up an beg. Your success is due to attention to detail and ability to get the right parts at the right price make you and your team an icon to us all.

According to my reading of history,
1.in Formula 5000, where quad cam Ford Capri RS3400 engines whipped Chevy 302's all the time,
2.at Bathurst where the little I6 3.3's took out 351 Boss engined Falcons and Skline GTR's took out 500 hp 5 liter EFI Group A Commodores and Turbo Ford Sierras,
3.the European Touring Car Challenge where the in line Beemers made everything else an also ran,
4.Early Nascar,
5.135 cubic inch hydroplane racing where little Aussie Foster twin cam six carbed Holden sixes routed out the Americans,
and
6. with Ford Maverick drag cars,

an I6 has never been a disadvantage in a race track. Sixes are race cars, V8's are tow cars! Knock 'em dead dude!

[BRWSaver]

The nice thing about putting the Rochester sideways with an aluminum spacer is that if I want to make it more of a 1bbl per intake port all I have to do is cut a groove in the center of the spacer and slide a flat piece of aluminum into it all the way to the floor of the intake log.

When we move to 6 side drafts we may go with motorcycle throttle bodies and fuel injection at that point, running a Megasquirt. At the moment I am working on tranny issues for the next race, then most likely adapting the supercharger I have sitting in the garage for a low pressure draw thru set up.

[xctasy]

This is yours, ripped from your cool video.



What size carb is it?


Here below is 's what I'm using on mine. Does your 2GC have any problems at all with fuel surge?


Mine is similar to the http://carbkitsource.com/carbs/kits/CK067.htm replacment listing, with top casting 7044114 130 4 - CM and bottom casting P-7046452 C-1. Not specifically listed on The Carby Dr's site, and it has a front fuel line, not side like your little gem.

I'm avoiding the big long range tank just now. I joined an Ecomodder site, and have decided to bring up the fuel economy first, keeping the car as close to stock as a person can. Given its historicala nd truly odd ball JDM status and its value and its numbers match food chain position on the Fox family tree, I owe it to myself and others here to work with the orginal parts. Where I draw the line is with carbs, cam and tunining, for everyone in the past, from Holman Moody to Offenhauser, from Vic Edelbrock to Ak Millar enterpises, has had a go at Triple Carb economy Falcons and Mustang sixes, but they dropped the ball when the little I6 Foxes came out. And thats why the 2.3 and 5.0 and latter Essex and Cologne V6's survived, and the I6 didn't. It was too hard to hi po this ancient engine without a full head redesign, and Ford, probably wisely, spent the extra dough on better engines. Where I come in is that I'm stuck with the log, and I gotta just make it work within the confines of my budget and purpose.


In line with that, I've been busy cleaning up my triple carb Rochester 2 jet carburation system for attaching to my 170 cylinder head. I'm using the common 7014114 130 4 - CM and P-7046452 C-1 code 2 Jet Rochester body 352 cfm carb,





Its a nice sized carb, good for independent runner induction, with 500 CFM Holley 2-bbl 4412 sized throttles at 1-11/16-in. bores, or 1.6875" or 42.8625 mm, and the same throttle center spacings as the bigger Holley 2-bbls (1.875" or 47.625 mm), but nice, small 1-3/16-in. venturis (30.16 mm) for that 352cfm at 3.0"Hg in each.




Where it is heaps better than the good old 2100 Autolite /2150/Motorcraft and the Holly 2-bbl 7448/4412 part number 2300 series is for its four bolt clamping spacings, for even though mine is a wide base 2.0" by 3.75", its got heaps of room around it to mount in the confines of the awkward 200/3.3 log heads iron dog turd.

Once I've got these jetted down to the right level, I'll get the economy and power I'm looking for, and I'll be able to fit a stock Tripower air cleaner on it to ensure I can run it as an CAFE/CARB/EPA emission era system with all the stock interconnects.