Latest on I6 24 Hours of Lemons Fairmont Futura

[BRWSaver]

We raced again this weekend in our 200 six powered 1979 Ford Fairmont Futura after a whole bunch of upgrades. This was out 4th race with 24 Hours of Lemons, an endurance road racing series for cars with a $500 or less retail value (before safety upgrades). This was our second time taking the checkered at the end with no major mechanical problems, and our first race where we actually felt fast.

Here's what's going on under the hood:

Original 1979 era big log 200 motor, backed with a C4 transmission and 3.73 gears running 225/50-16 tires for 100mph=5000rpm redline. After losing compression on 4 of 6 cylinders in our first race this motor was pulled, honed, fitted with new pistons, rings, rod and main bearings. A stock timing set replaced the 100,000 worn original. A second hand but never installed Clay Smith 264/264 110 hydraulic cam was acquired from someone on this forum. A local machine shop did a 3 angel valve job (also shimmed the springs), replaced 2 bad intake valves and milled the head .060". A friend with a Bridgeport milled a nice flat spot for me on the log with a 1 1/2" x 3" oval hole in it for a 2bbl carb. A little JB Weld and a 1" think hunk of aluminum allowed me to fit a Rochester 2GC off a 1966 Chevy 283 I had around to the Ford motor, and a throttle cable from a junkyard FI car allowed me to hook it up. On the exhaust side I had the worst looking header ever made (by me) on the 1, 2 and 6 holes, and the stock cast iron manifold (with ends blocked) exhausting 3, 4 and 5 flowing into 2 2" pipes with glass packs exiting in front of the rear wheel. The jetting may not work for you, but I ended up with #60 main jets in the carb, and the plugs look great, though it has some issues until it hits about 2000rpm.

So we took it to Thunderhill Raceway this past weekend and beat the heck out of it. The biggest failing previously was the C4 has a 2000rpm drop between 2nd and 3rd gears if you shift at 5000rpm, and the old motor took forever to get out of that hole. Now at 3000rpm it still pulls great and revs right back up to the 5000rpm self imposed redline. It sounds so good doing I just want to keep revving until the pistons come out of the block. It now just about as fast as anything else out there, excepting the V8 cars. I think if we had a stick shift and either a 4 speed non-overdrive or a T5 to keep it in the sweet spot we'd be catching things like Miatas, BMW 325s and Porsche 944s. I may start looking for Dagenham bits.

So we finished 63rd out of 166 cars that actually turned laps this weekend, with a best lap time 20 seconds a lap behind the leaders, though only 7 seconds slower than the leader in our class (a turbo Dodge minivan).

[PaceFever79]

Great pic! Dropping 3 in the dirt!

[BRWSaver]

Yeah, the chassis is fairly balanced, but we're still coming to terms with the increase in power

[JACook]

Dagenham bits? If you did manage to find a serviceable Dagenham, track use would reduce
it to bits in fairly short order.

While the '65-'66 6-cylinder Mustang bellhousings had a smaller transmission pattern than
the V8s, in '67 that all changed. A 3-speed bellhousing from a '67+ 200CI Mustang would
make short work of bolting in a toploader, and either the early bell with an adapter, or a
later 3.3 SROD bell would let you run a T5.

I put a toploader behind a warmed-over 200 in my '67 coupe many years ago. It made the
car much more fun than it was with the 3-speed the car came with.

[83glxdroptop]

Happy to see a local guy take home the prize. Love what you've done with your ride!

[BRWSaver]

Dagenham bits? If you did manage to find a serviceable Dagenham, track use would reduce
it to bits in fairly short order.

While the '65-'66 6-cylinder Mustang bellhousings had a smaller transmission pattern than
the V8s, in '67 that all changed. A 3-speed bellhousing from a '67+ 200CI Mustang would
make short work of bolting in a toploader, and either the early bell with an adapter, or a
later 3.3 SROD bell would let you run a T5.

I put a toploader behind a warmed-over 200 in my '67 coupe many years ago. It made the
car much more fun than it was with the 3-speed the car came with.

Have you seen the prices of toploaders these days? Its hard to justify the cost of 6cyl bell, clutch, flywheel, adapter, T5, or no adapter toploader, vs just swapping in a V8. I can get a V8 and transmission for a couple of hundred, and I already have a V8 K member.

So, the way I see it is either 1) swap in a 3 speed stick (what? 5% more power going to the wheels? still huge gap in ratios) 2) Dagenham (Fragile, but more fragile than a T5? Nobody wants them so the price is right) 3) The rare T4 or was there a second non-overdrive 4 speed behind these in Fox bodies? (anyone have one of these they want to get rid of?)

[xctasy]

Okay, its cost is everything, so you need to look at what you can pick up for zip

The Mexican made Tremec 1979-1984 had Three types of SR gear sets. Two types of case, or alloy. Two SROD gearsets, 302 V8 with its lopeing 0.70:1 top, or 171/200 with its 0.81:1 top. The sixes and eights were just 3-speed Toploader 3-speed ratios with an over driven fourth.

Then variants on the 2300 Lima four, 0.81:1 top, or SR non OD top.

Not sure on what is what, but certainly its a good gearbox if the nylon ball is okay and the rail isnt worn.

Price is everything, so punt for a Dagenham. They had a 0.77:1 Laycock de Normanville over drive you could get off the Pommy Mark 3 Zephyr, a very common unit which was electric and reliable and found also on
MGB GT's (very tough old gearbox),
Reliant Sabre and Scimitar (Zephyr gearbox),
Volvo 444, p1800's and 144's,
Vauxhall Velox, Cresta, Victor, Viscount, Ventura (3 speed and 4 speed, with up to seven gears on a four speed box)
Jag XJ6's with the new 4-speed synchromesh, loosely Moss based, but the O/D was similar to the Zephyr .

Really simple to hook up, it was a great option, and there are many about

The US Y-blocks and FE's had them on the early pre TopLoader from 1957 to 1965, then it was phased out as the Toploader got used more.

The Studebaker 289 had a 3-speed manual and over drive option, a brilliant set up.

I'd even consider a 3 speed manual gearbox from a 1957 272, 292 or 312 Ford with the Borg Warner OD, but they had no modern transmission mounting, they were canterlevered out back

[Durango]

That is so awesome! Wish I could have been there.

[BRWSaver]

That is so awesome! Wish I could have been there.

If our transmission had gone bad I would have been wishing that too. As it was another racer picked us up a 200/C4 combo for $150 from somebody in Fernly. And of course we didn't nee either, so now I have too many drivetrains in my garage. I think I may do a 3 side draft bike carb conversion to one of the small log heads I have.

[BRWSaver]

Okay, its cost is everything, so you need to look at what you can pick up for zip

The Mexican made Tremec 1979-1984 had Three types of SR gear sets. Two types of case, or alloy. Two SROD gearsets, 302 V8 with its lopeing 0.70:1 top, or 171/200 with its 0.81:1 top. The sixes and eights were just 3-speed Toploader 3-speed ratios with an over driven fourth.

Then variants on the 2300 Lima four, 0.81:1 top, or SR non OD top.

Not sure on what is what, but certainly its a good gearbox if the nylon ball is okay and the rail isnt worn.

Is the Tremec the overdrive 4 speed that came behind these from the factory?

The other reason to go with the Dag is that people advertise them on Craigslist, people just junk SROD and non-T5 trannys from these cars.

[meeandmine]

Nice lookin ride. Must feel good to blow past those 3-series guys. Just wondering what you have in the way of suspension mods?

[BRWSaver]

Nice lookin ride. Must feel good to blow past those 3-series guys. Just wondering what you have in the way of suspension mods?

Based on a post I found here, I determined V8 Thunderbird springs were the stiffest thing that came from the factory, so a set of those from the junk yard went in. I had a decent set of "onion head" strut mounts on it, so the lower portion of that was cut off so I could mount them on top of the strut tower. We eyeballed how far back and toward the center of the car the strut mounts could be moved, drilled new holes, and welded fender washers to the strut towers in the new location for reinforcements. This gave us a little more negative camber to help with turn in, and a lot more negative caster (which this chassis is severely deficient in).

I had fabricated a strut tower brace, but it didn't clear the 2bbl carb that I mounted for this race, so I have to make a new one. Don't let anyone tell you those braces do nothing. We discovered that without the brace we have at least 1 more degree of negative camber than with it. So the towers are being pushed in by that much by the weight of the car. Also, if you put one on your car, or make one like I did, take all your measurements and tighten the bolts only when the car is sitting on the ground. The new strut tower brace will tie into the firewall where I have the roll cage welded and should be much stronger than the old one that just went from left to right.

The Thunderbird springs were cut to lower the car a few inches front and back, then a cheap rubber spring spacer was put in the front coil because I lowered it too far. Urethane bushings have been put in the A-arms and steering rack to replace the tired old rubber ones, as well as the front sway bar end links. Out back urethane was added to the lower trailing arms, then they were boxed with 1/8" thick metal from the hardware store and a 5.0 Mustang GT rear sway bar (3/4"?) was added. Combined with the stock Fairmont front sway bar (1" maybe?) this makes it more oversteery so it can be drifted thru the corners easier.

I'm thinking its time for stiffer front springs, but I may just go with a new set of the Thunderbird springs that haven't been holding a car up for 25+ years. They're less than $100 from Rock Auto. We run Gabriel shock/struts (less than $25 each) all the way around. 5.0 Mustang front brakes with Wagner Severe Duty pads ($25 a set, but sadly discontinued) and a 7.5" rear out of an early Mustang GT with trac-loc and a set of 3.73 gears.

Its sitting on Thunderbird Turbo Coupe 16" wheels that I paid $100 for with 225/50-16 tires on it. We may go to a lower profile tire in the future to lower the car more without screwing up the suspension geometry any worse than we already have.

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

That's really cool, but you lost to a minivan

JFWY, i'd say look into a 5 speed and you'll be kicking some ass.

[meeandmine]

ever considered a monte carlo bar along with the strut braces?

[xctasy]

Is the Tremec the overdrive 4 speed that came behind these from the factory?

The other reason to go with the Dag is that people advertise them on Craigslist, people just junk SROD and non-T5 trannys from these cars.

Yes, it was non OD std Non CA and High Altitiude areas for 1978. Everywhere except those areas, the 1:1 top ratio 4 speed was standard for 1978 Fairmonts and Zephyrs. Then OD from 79t time onwards. c3/c4 standard for CA and Colorado and othe H alt areas, so a stock 78 4-speed should do it for you.

The biggest failing previously was the C4 has a 2000rpm drop between 2nd and 3rd gears if you shift at 5000rpm, and the old motor took forever to get out of that hole. Now at 3000rpm it still pulls great and revs right back up to the 5000rpm self imposed redline. It sounds so good doing I just want to keep revving until the pistons come out of the block. It now just about as fast as anything else out there, excepting the V8 cars. I think if we had a stick shift and either a 4 speed non-overdrive or a T5 to keep it in the sweet spot we'd be catching things like Miatas, BMW 325s and Porsche 944s. I may start looking for Dagenham bits..

I understand the debt to equity situtation, a couple of non Over drive 4-speed birds in the hand is better than one in the bush.

I think a closer than SROD ratio gearbox is what you need, and the stock US Dag ratios look good enough verses the stock RUC/RAD/SROD or non OD SR transmissions. Any thing thsat has a sniff of Toploader has too much cost to it.

The Dag is the best option for ratios verses cost, and the fact that each net bought Dag often comes with extra parts from another forlon Ford Falcon or Mustang, means. Win, Win, Win.

A fourth win would be the fairly common Laycock de Normanville Overdrive Unit, found as an option on GM Vauxhall 2.3, 2.6, 3.3 sixes, 1.5/1.6 I4's, slant fours, and Ford 2.6 Z-cars, the Mk III Zephyr and Zodiac.

See http://club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-bin/b...gi?blog=488026

Found on three cars I saw in the weekend while doing road inspections in my Stang

The red Zodiac, the green Zephyr and the brown drop top MGB, each with OhhDee



Over a period of 40 years, Laycock Engineering manufactured over three and a half million overdrive Units, and over one million of these were fitted to Volvo motorcars. The GearVendors 0.778:1 unit it based on it, and a D or LH for a Ford or P type from a Volvo would work really well.

So, considering about 20% of all foreign NZ, Aussie, British six cylinder Dagenham boxes from the Mk iii 62-66 Zephyr 6 came out with an optional 0.77:1 over drive on top of that for Top and Third, that would split that 3000 to 5000 rpm hole. 1:1---.0.77, 1.41---1.09:1. Electrically, any time you require it. So you could keep the Dag in 3rd and then have an intermediate gear on the fly just by tapping a switch, sort of like an Explorer 5-speed, you could lock the OD out just by pressing the column swith button.


I also saw an 85 Tempo this weekend, and three CFI units from this would fit anywhere three 1946 Holleys would go. A 95 hp an injector, thats 285 hp of fuel supply for just 75 bucks (normally 25 dollars for the ECU, TBI, just run three and convert to Thin Film ignition and your eating 5.0's forbreakfast)

[BRWSaver]

ever considered a monte carlo bar along with the strut braces?

That is what I meant when I said I was tying the strut towers to the firewall. Its the classic Monte Carlo bar, only in this car there is a roll cage, and 2 bars from the dash bar to a plate welded to the firewall right where the Monte Carlo bar will attach in the engine bay

[BRWSaver]

That's really cool, but you lost to a minivan

JFWY, i'd say look into a 5 speed and you'll be kicking some ass.

A 5 speed would be nice, or really a 4 speed. I doubt we'd ever use the overdrive 5th gear. Only problem is there is no easy way to swap one in.

[xctasy]

It lookes like its Dagenham, then.

I've done a good look at the five Over drive variants on the Dagenham, the Zephyr LH one is only 22%, or 0.77:1, and its only able to tip in and out under partial load. Sod all use in a car race. Therein is the reason FOR poor North American take up on all production manual over drives, weather it be Borg Warner, Doug Nash, Laycock or Gearvendors, they have all been an F for fail in America...they can't hack the abuse an integrated over drive gear can.

I'll repeat that the 1985 production class winner (Production Muscle car) in NZ runs a 5.0 Mustang with the last of that years Four speed (either a T4 or an SROD), and its perfect for tin top racing, where everyone is in between gears.

Lookes like Porsche were right all those years ago for not having a 5 speed box on a 930 Turbo Carrera for 15 years...if its got the torque, why need an extra gear?

Go hunt some trophy, dude. Hurst Indy shifter on a Dag, and some Motorbike carbs await you.

[Firebolt]

Negative caster?

[BRWSaver]

Negative caster?

Sorry, that should actually be positive caster. I moved the top of the strut back towards the fire wall. Anyway, the Fox chassis has next to nothing for caster, and too little causes the car to have less negative camber when the wheel is turned, which is exactly why you don't want. Anyway we are tip-toeing toward a fast balanced car.

[Dean_T]

As far as I know, in North America, Ford used the Dagenham 4 speed on '66 and older vehicles. This is a problem because the Dagenham had a bellhousing unique to the Dagenham and the bolt pattern for the 144/170/200 engine was the old style ('65 and older). It will not bolt up to a '67-'80ish 200I6.

It seems to me the quickest, easiest way to get a manual trans behind a 200 with the non-big bell bolt pattern is to use the bellhousing from a '79-'80 Fairmont/Zephyr/Mustang/Capri. If you have access to a machine shop, plug the existing trans bolt holes and redrill to fit the T-5 bolt pattern and open up the bearing retainer hole to fit the T-5 bearing retainer.

If you're lucky, you can find the E1 bellhousing which a T-5 bolts up directly. This bell was on some 200I6 Mustangs in 1981 and is hard to find but I found mine by going to carparts.com, searched under 1981 Mustang, 200I6 manual, non-overdrive 4 speed.

PM me if you're interested in the '79 Mustang 200 I6 bellhousing that would need work to make a T-5 fit.

Dean T

[xctasy]

As far as I know, in North America, Ford used the Dagenham 4 speed on '66 and older vehicles. This is a problem because the Dagenham had a bellhousing unique to the Dagenham and the bolt pattern for the 144/170/200 engine was the old style ('65 and older). It will not bolt up to a '67-'80ish 200I6.

It seems to me the quickest, easiest way to get a manual trans behind a 200 with the non-big bell bolt pattern is to use the bellhousing from a '79-'80 Fairmont/Zephyr/Mustang/Capri. If you have access to a machine shop, plug the existing trans bolt holes and redrill to fit the T-5 bolt pattern and open up the bearing retainer hole to fit the T-5 bearing retainer.

If you're lucky, you can find the E1 bellhousing which a T-5 bolts up directly. This bell was on some 200I6 Mustangs in 1981 and is hard to find but I found mine by going to carparts.com, searched under 1981 Mustang, 200I6 manual, non-overdrive 4 speed.

PM me if you're interested in the '79 Mustang 200 I6 bellhousing that would need work to make a T-5 fit.

Dean T

Mmm, Because the Dag is the early incarnation of later Toploader geometrics, the Dag can be mounted on any thing, 2.77, 3.03, D9 or E1, with just a set of strong countersink bolts.

The high mount blocks , or some of them, are still dual pattern, or at least, dual pattern capable if they are not low mount starter equiped. That makes them able to be redrilled back to the 2.77 top bolt pattern. And able to take a Sachs/M-B/Alfa Romeo 215 mm 8.5 inch clutch if the 132 teeth flywheel is refinished. I think, so more room for a good exhast header.

The D9 SRODand E1 SROD/T4 bell have a Fox compatible clutch mounting, though. And perhaps making a 2.77 work in a Fox could be a problem.

All down to what can be cobled up, and made reliable with the parts you have.

[xctasy]

I re-read the details on the 1979 SR gearbox in my Ford 1903 to 1984 Auto Editors of Consumer Guide book,http://www.chartwellbooksellers.com/...emNumber=15271

and Pat Ganahls V6 Performance Book. http://www.amazon.com/V-6-Performanc.../dp/093147213X

I know there were wide ratio Single Rail, non O/D on 2.3/2.8's
0.81:1 top SROD's on 3.3's, with 3.08:1 diff standard
0.70:1 top SROD's on 5.0's


The Consumer Guide say 0.70;1 on the T-code 3.3 I6 and F code 5.0 V8, but by 1981, magazines and brochures say it was 0.81:1 over driven top on B code 3.3. At least, the 3.08:1 diff cars had a 2.49:1 final drive ratio, so that should have been the SROD.


That source implied the Z code 2.8 V6 didn't ever get an SROD, while Pat G states that the later 2.8's did get it. Its probable that the Capris got the SROD, as the 2.8 remained an option for longer into 1979 than in the Mustang as it was one of the most popular options. The stock 2.3 didn't get it, nor did the 2.3 carby Turbo.

The year earlier, 1978, a four speed was standard on the first Foxes. That meant the SR, non over drive. That's the one to find.

For non California and low altitude, all 3.3 cars had base 4-speed manuals, the auto was an option. But the evidence is four speed, and that it was only when CAFE averages hit town that they went to overdriven tops for 79.

[BRWSaver]

As far as I know, in North America, Ford used the Dagenham 4 speed on '66 and older vehicles. This is a problem because the Dagenham had a bellhousing unique to the Dagenham and the bolt pattern for the 144/170/200 engine was the old style ('65 and older). It will not bolt up to a '67-'80ish 200I6.

Dean T

As far as I know all the C4 transmissions bolted to these motors using the small bell bolt pattern from the early motors, that's why the later motors are still dual pattern. I would love to find the unicorn non-OD 4 speed behind a six in a Fox Body, but I have never seen any Fox in the yards with any stick shift behind a 3.3, and I have been looking.

I have no interest in paying good money for just a bell that can be adapted to a T5, unless its already got a transmission attached. Even a 3.03 transmission would make me interested. But without a tranny attached its just not worth it. I can find motors with transmissions listed on Craigslist pulled from running cars for $250.

[Dean_T]

As far as I know all the C4 transmissions bolted to these motors using the small bell bolt pattern from the early motors, that's why the later motors are still dual pattern. I would love to find the unicorn non-OD 4 speed behind a six in a Fox Body, but I have never seen any Fox in the yards with any stick shift behind a 3.3, and I have been looking.

I have no interest in paying good money for just a bell that can be adapted to a T5, unless its already got a transmission attached. Even a 3.03 transmission would make me interested. But without a tranny attached its just not worth it. I can find motors with transmissions listed on Craigslist pulled from running cars for $250.

I'm an idiot. You are absolutely right. I just read a Ventura County CL ad for a Fox 200 I6 with C3 and in one of the pictures, the dual bolt pattern could plainly be seen.

For $250 getting the engine to trans is a good deal. No hunting for used flywheels, block plates, or other bits and pieces, One other aspect about the Dagenham is getting the Fairmont clutch cable to work with the Dag's clutch fork - Maybe that Mcleod's hydaulic throw out bearing or some such JY master/slave hydraulic clutch system may be adapted.

Does anyone know how many splines the Dag's output shaft has? That would be the other show stopper.

My opinion of the Dag trans is they're kleenix compared to the paper 2.77s. I've heard they didn't hold up well behind a stock 200 I6 (seemed to be okay behind a 170 though).

However, my '65 project had a Dagenham and it was jammed in second. I was able to sell it and its bellhousing for $140 on ebay. I may be underestimating the Dagenham but I wouldn't think they are as strong as a NWC T-5.

Have you asked this over at the Classic Inline six Forum?

Thank you for this thread and everyone whose posted, I learned quite a lot!

Dean

(P.S., I was offering the bell for free as a courtesy to a racer but your idea is better than trying to piece meal everything together).