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Thread: c3 to a c4 ?

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    Default c3 to a c4 ?

    Hi Guys I'm assuming all i need for the swap is a c4 bellhousing starter motor and what this guy over the phone describes as a one piece ring gear with torque converter all as one unit and there's no flex plate ? I have a good c4 out of a v8 car so does this all sound correct ? is the torque converter and ring gear all one with no spacer plate ?
    Thanks

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    The good news is the starters interchange between the C-3 and C-4 transmissions. That's about the only good news! You will need a flexplate to mount the torque convertor; fortunately it is cheaper than the flywheel required by the C-3. Also the dipstick tube is larger on the C-4, so that must be replaced. Moving along, the yoke for the C-4 is also bigger, so it too must be replaced. Apparently the C-4 is also a little longer than its weaker cousin the C-3, so be prepared to need a shorter shaft also. With so many little differences this swap can be a real bear, but at least the C-4 is a lot better shifting and way more durable trans than the C-3. Good luck with your swap! Oh my, I just went back and re-read your post. A V-8 C-4 will not bolt right up to a 200 inch six. Sorry "bout that!
    Last edited by 289Falcon; 09-29-2012 at 05:15 AM.

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    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    The C4 dates back to the first 1965 Mustang application. All later C4s in the little 200's had 136 teeth.The C3 was designed for the 1974 European Fords, and used behind the 200 when the Z code Colgne V6 supplies ran out from 1979 to 1983, right through to the last X-code option 200 used in the 83 LTD. It's light, smooth, far more modern, but won't take a beating like the C4 can. The C3 has a torque converter which is much stronger than the little 200 c4 i6..the C4 converter to ring gear commonly cracks under really hard use.

    The C4 is nicer to rebuild, a good, simple all American design. The C3 is a pain in that you have to be really carefull mating it up to the flexplate, easy to miss match it, getting the T/Con tang falsely engaged. I've never had problems with the last four C3's I've had. Two Pinto 2000 engined Cortinas, one 114 HP Cologne V6, and now the C3 box behind my 1981 Mustang 3.3 is my absolute favorite. Got spares comming out my ears...cable kickdowns for 38 dgev Weber conversions, later 5R55 hop up parts...there's parts around if you look and ask the right questions

    I love the US C3 rod kickdown, the fact that you can hook any 1987-2001 A4LD or 5 speed Exploder trans from any 4liter V6 to it. Or the 2.3 Lima 4 A4LD, if your silly enough.

    But Ford sold off Bordeux in 2009, and they no longer make all the earlier bits for it, so rebuilding one is both hard graft parts wise, and problematic quality wise because the French built it with very strict tollerences, and anytime the great unwashed like us spanner it, it tends to leak from the front pump. The best thing is that the Explorer parts have really improved the strength of any good rebuild. Due to the problems finding good info, I'd say the chances of anyone rebuilding one well, is a 9 out of 10 chances of failing unless you read up the Brian's Explorer forum rebuild.


    The c3 has been behind everything from 60 hp 1300 cc Escorts to 160 hp European 2.8's, along with the 145 hp 2.3 Turbo's in the Merkur XR4TI. It's ok if you throw dollars into the front pump if you ever have to rebuild it, but its just that the rest of the parts aren't up to much. The updated A4LD and early 4R44's had legion problems due to the small clutch areas and that silly bolted in front pump which always seams to leak...it never got fixed untill the 2001 Explorer gave it a one piece case...never looked back then

    The 3 bolt C4 200 i6 starter is the same as the big block FE version, a 176 tooth application. But it also sits on the 136 teeth 200, easy as pie, as it's just closer to the crank.

    The flexplate on the C3 was a German deign based on one that has two more teeth than the C4. The C3 flexplate is from the 2.6/2.8/2.9/4.0 Cologne V6, dating back to the first 1973 Capri 2600, 138 teeth.
    There are two C3 starters. Each can cope with a pitch change of two teeth, as the C3 or c4 flexplate indexes whatever starter motor you use.


    Since all C3's are high mount engines, the issue with C3 to c4 swaps is the correct part number to clear the differnt football primary converter equiped cars from 1981 to 1983. If it has an EOBE-9430-AB exhast, and a high mount block, it HAS to have the specific the high mount E1BF-11131-BA 1981 to 1983 spec starter.

    The Fox C3's and C4'S came out with a brilliant rod kickdown, which looks like this on my Mustang, as was the same between transmissions as far as I can tell.


    The stock one on my European Cortina was cable operated, much like the cable C4 kickdown. Whatever Ford auto transmission you use, the information is there to make it work, but the C4 is a cakewalk compared to the C3.
    Last edited by xctasy; 10-01-2012 at 12:44 AM.

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    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Sorry people, some of the info I posted was just wrong regards the teeth count for C4 and C3 automatic flexplates on 200 six cylinders.


    There are five Pinto EAO, Lima and Cologne V6 flexplates in 135 or 138 teeth form that fit other A4LD/5R55 applications. Ford down graded to 132 teeth on the Front drive 1.9 Escorts, 2.3/2.5 HSC/HSO pushrod Tempo/Topaz/Taurus engines, as wel as the later Lima Ranger engines, including the Vulcan 3.0. Just very confusing. Ford did this because it always has given them cost savings on the prodcution line, but it makes things hard for us, as we have to find out what part Ford used for each year and engine type.


    I've only had European C3's dissambled, so they are 135 (4cyl) and 138 teeth (Cologne V6 ) flexplates and bellhousings, so not relevent here to the 132 teeth flexplates. Sorry for that.


    Re the so called "136 teeth flexplate", it doesn't exist, but a 136 teeth flywheel for 3.03 3 speeds, SROD and T4 4 speed geaboxes does. It was the common 9" clutch plate flywheel for everything in line small six and manual after 1966.


    The US C3 behind the 200 engine from 1978 to 1983 was imported from France, and used a combined 132 teeth flexplate with 9-1/2" bolt spacing, very different to the normal US C4 200, even though they both have 132 teeth. Part number is D8BZ-6375-B




    A note for future reference, since the C3 transmission now has close to 100% rebuild support since Ford bought back the French plant tht made these transmissions..

    However, if changing to the much better C4, here is what to get.


    https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?t=65813
    Quote Originally Posted by bubba22349
    There are two C4 bells that will fit the 1965 to 1970 170 and 1965 to 1981 200 / 3.3L blocks. By unbolting the 250 C4 bell (from that 76 Maverick) it can be changed to one of below bells without much problem. With the right stock parts i.e Flexplate (flywheel) and Torque Converter from a 200 C4 combo would be all bolt together to your original 200.

    1965 to 1970 170 cid L6 eng. & 1965 to 1977 200 Cid. l6 eng.
    Casting No. (on the bell) C5GP-7976-A
    Case fill trans with 3 bolt starter (5/16)
    OEM part number C4TZ-7976-B

    Later style C4 bell
    1978 to 1981 200 Cid. l6 eng. and or 3.3L eng.
    The Casting No. (on the bell) D8BP-7976-AA
    Case Fill, 3-Bolt Starter (One 5/16" & two 3/8" bolts)
    OEM part number D8BZ-7976-B
    Note this bell will also fit the above early engines by changing the starter or swapping to the correct starter nose.

    Each use the stock 132 teeth welded on to torque converter flexplate.


    The stock 132 teeth C3 flexplate won't work, and the starter motor is a different part number, but should work. Just be prepared to change to starter nose or swap out the starter if it won't fit between the converter and bellhousing.


    Been a long hard road finding this info.

    Generally, for in line Six and Cologne V6 cylinder Foxes, any earlier automatic bellhousing will work.

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