A question/concern to who decides what a "savable" car is.

[MidwestMustangs]

I have been in the restoration business a long time, working for restoration shops, and owning one. I have had my own business for quite some time. Long story short, I've been doing this a long time.

My question is who on this board decides what is a savable car. I know that this site promotes restoration and preservation. Which I agree with, otherwise I would not be in the industry that I am in.

I specialize in 79/93 repair, restorations, and preservations. By that I mean I repair them, restore them, and try to keep all original ones, well all original.

I understand that this site frowns upon cars being taken off the road, but how do you save cars if one isnt allowed to sacrifice another car?

What is a person supposed to do with a car that is not worthy of putting thousands and thousands of dollars into? But yet has a good tail light panel, or a good front apron?

Why is it that the cars deemed "savable" seem to never be purchased as complete cars? I would think that if a car is savable, people would be more than eager to buy a complete car?

I dont believe in cutting up good cars either, but at some point all these cars can not be saved. Nor should some of them be saved.

I guess Im baffled how everyone wants to restore and keep these cars going when a person can not part another one out.

Im not saying to part out an original 85 saleen, but if I had an original 85 saleen that needed a rear clip, I surely would go find a low mileage 4 or 6cyl car with a mint body to sacrifice for the saleen.

I try to follow the rules on here, and I get some of them. Everyone knows this site has a reputation. Its sad because I talk to a lot of people who do not even want to come over to this board. Which is truly a shame for everyone.

I understand that everyone wants to make their money, its a business, but sometimes its not very business friendly IMO.

I apologize for getting off track, I really just want to know who deems cars savable, and whoever they are, in the future would they be interested in buying the "savable" cars I come across?

[brianj]

If you cut a 6-cyl car to save another, just do not advertise the fact. Just saying," I found a good rear clip for the car" is enough. Everyone knows that used parts come from somewhere. I think the problem comes in when people are either obnoxious about it, or make a living scrapping good cars, that there is a problem.

[cottonbear]

You will never be able to make everyone happy.

[4eyed85gt1]

If a car absolutly cant be save be it from rust or a collision and another car just do happens to need parts then that sometimes justify it.

[rancheronut]

You will never be able to make everyone happy.

you must have meet my ex wife

[homer302]

Its an interesting question to be sure. I mean, really; ANY car can be saved, right? If you have enough money you can repair any amount of damage. But that doesn't mean it would make any sense to do so. Sorry you feel bummed. I guess you have a different perspective than most of us because it's what you do for a living. I certainly don't have any say around here but I see what you mean.
Overall, I still think it's the best site on the net for enthusiasts of these cars but I can see your point for sure.

[holtzer1]

I've given up trying to figure out what is considered salvageable on this site. I picked up a 6 banger car a few years ago, broken dash, holes in the floors, rotted, dented and smashed body panels, torn front and rear bumpers, blown head gaskets, basicaly it was trashed out junk. Yet...I seen a car parted out on here today that's in waaaay better shape then the one I listed and it's a ok. I asked about it and my posts were removed. It's more of a who you know thing IMO.

[homer302]

I hope that is not true. I think there was more to the story.
I hope so at least.
I don't know anybody here and I have had a few posts removed so i don't think that is entirely true.

[FoxChassis]

Opinions of the person doing the parting don't matter. Even if you do body and paint work for a living. Proof of catastrophic damage is what matters. No proof, no parting. No exceptions.

Cars don't get a thumbs up or down for parting via popular vote by non-FEP staff. They aren't allowed to be parted because of "title issues". They aren't allowed to be parted because you couldn't sell it whole, you think it's not worth fixing, it's "only a four cylinder", it has a dirty carpet and busted taillights, etc.

Who decides what savable is? The owners, administrators, and moderators of this site are who have the final say, if it's not completely obvious the car has sustained catastrophic damage that is not reasonably repairable.

Nobody gets special treatment here because they "know somebody". Nobody.

[capri jimmy]

respect the rules here simple,
what you do elsewhere your on your own.
that being said don't want people coming here to part good
cars for profit.

[Mike Croke]

There is no black and white answer. It will always be a judgement call. What may be totaled to one person could be a weekend repair for someone else.

Some basic concepts in regards to these cars need to be stated. First and foremost, the "newest" car will now be 25 years old. Unless it is in pristine condition, it probably needs paint, interior, driveline rebuilding, and suspension work. A running car picked up for cheap can easily "need" ten thousand dollars (or more) and hundreds of hours of labor to be brought to a condition that is desirable. If the car needs thousands of dollars and the owner doesn't have the money, that by itself does not qualify as unsalvageable in the opinion of FEP and this site is not obligated to aid someone out of their own financial quagmire. Cars are an expensive hobby.

Second, the market for these cars is such that investing in them means losing money. These are not Hemi 'Cudas or Ferrari GTOs. These cars are a hobby, not a savings account. An owner can spend $15K restoring an SVO and only be able to sell it for $6K. Money poured into these cars has to be spent with love for the car and enthusiasm for the hobby, not with the hope of recouping the investment when it's time to sell. If it's too expensive, maybe it's time to consider a different hobby. Becoming disheartened or disenchanted with a project does not mean the car has to be parted out.

Third, in contrast to the two statements above, we do not expect to save every car. The vast majority of us are not expert body techs with access to frame machines and paint booths. Some rust is fixable, some is fatal. Some cars can be straightened, some are never going to drive right again. We do not expect someone to replace every piece of metal just to keep the car on the road. For instance, there are folks who can re-skin a roof but such skill is well beyond the average owner. We make a judgement call on what we think is a reasonable amount of repair to keep a car going. We will never make everyone happy when such decisions are made. Examples of this are already appearing in this thread.

Fourth, we are ultimately trying to not empower a market for someone who snaps up cheap running cars off craigslist and then parts the cars here. Every so often, we get someone who registers here and then plays terrorist: "If you don't let me part this car on your site, I'll ______!!!" Our intent is to preserve the cars, not thin the herd. Unrestricted, we'll have classifieds filled with prime parts for sale at the cost of fewer cars on the road. Every moonlighting dude with a socket set will be scouring craigslist for choice cars to dismantle.

This is all a gray area. If the car is to be parted on FEP, FEP gets to make the decision.

[CoyoteRI]

I personally think that is a fair assessment. I had to part out my beloved '83 Vert due to structural rust issues. If I had access to a shop and knowledge, its possible it could have been saved, but it was certainly not savable by the average enthusiast. I sent pics to FEP as to why I felt it couldn't be saved, they agreed and other cars lived because of it. I still have several i'm trying to save, and I hope I can. The goal as I understand it is to keep jokers who part for money out of the loop here, and keep it to those of us who have a REAL interest in saving them, which I agree with.


my 2 cents.....

Sean

[banzaibullitt]

It makes me wonder how many were lost to the "cash for clunkers" BS. My Dad saw one at a dealer that appeared to be in fair shape, but was sacrificed for this government program. It's pretty sad, because streetable 4 eyes are few and far between around this area... even aeros.

[FoxChassis]

Almost 1600 '84-'93 Foxes went to their death thanks to the C4C program....

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showpost...52&postcount=6

[mrcyd84]

Almost 1600 '84-'93 Foxes went to their death thanks to the C4C program....

ugh...CFC.....I remember well watching the news and at some junkyard they were showing all the cars that were ready for the crusher. 84 GT vert was one.....front end still intact, including the bumper cover. And which one do they show getting crushed? The 84....I was incensed to say the least. I didn't see all sides of the car, but it looked salvageable. What a waste.....

[holtzer1]

There were some stangs we would consider to be in excellent to mint condition that went to the crushers. To some people a car is nothing more than a tool to get from one place to the next. My wife is one of them, as are her parents. They can't figure out why I spend the time and money on cars like I do...to me it's more than a mode of transportation. The c4c program made the typical "instant gratification" that so many look for now a days within arms reach. Quick cash, and sometimes more than the car was worth....

[MidwestMustangs]

Opinions of the person doing the parting don't matter. Even if you do body and paint work for a living. Proof of catastrophic damage is what matters. No proof, no parting. No exceptions.

Cars don't get a thumbs up or down for parting via popular vote by non-FEP staff. They aren't allowed to be parted because of "title issues". They aren't allowed to be parted because you couldn't sell it whole, you think it's not worth fixing, it's "only a four cylinder", it has a dirty carpet and busted taillights, etc.

Who decides what savable is? The owners, administrators, and moderators of this site are who have the final say, if it's not completely obvious the car has sustained catastrophic damage that is not reasonably repairable.

Nobody gets special treatment here because they "know somebody". Nobody.

You answered my question. Logistically I would have thought that the best place to help others with a 4 eye car, is a website designed specifically for 4 eye cars. Im starting to think if a person has a 4 eye parts car, this is not the place to let it be known.

Just out of curiosity, what is a person supposed to do with a car that is deemed "savable?" That is if the board decides it can not be parted out?

[MidwestMustangs]

There is no black and white answer. It will always be a judgement call. What may be totaled to one person could be a weekend repair for someone else.

Some basic concepts in regards to these cars need to be stated. First and foremost, the "newest" car will now be 25 years old. Unless it is in pristine condition, it probably needs paint, interior, driveline rebuilding, and suspension work. A running car picked up for cheap can easily "need" ten thousand dollars (or more) and hundreds of hours of labor to be brought to a condition that is desirable. If the car needs thousands of dollars and the owner doesn't have the money, that by itself does not qualify as unsalvageable in the opinion of FEP and this site is not obligated to aid someone out of their own financial quagmire. Cars are an expensive hobby.

Second, the market for these cars is such that investing in them means losing money. These are not Hemi 'Cudas or Ferrari GTOs. These cars are a hobby, not a savings account. An owner can spend $15K restoring an SVO and only be able to sell it for $6K. Money poured into these cars has to be spent with love for the car and enthusiasm for the hobby, not with the hope of recouping the investment when it's time to sell. If it's too expensive, maybe it's time to consider a different hobby. Becoming disheartened or disenchanted with a project does not mean the car has to be parted out.

Third, in contrast to the two statements above, we do not expect to save every car. The vast majority of us are not expert body techs with access to frame machines and paint booths. Some rust is fixable, some is fatal. Some cars can be straightened, some are never going to drive right again. We do not expect someone to replace every piece of metal just to keep the car on the road. For instance, there are folks who can re-skin a roof but such skill is well beyond the average owner. We make a judgement call on what we think is a reasonable amount of repair to keep a car going. We will never make everyone happy when such decisions are made. Examples of this are already appearing in this thread.

Fourth, we are ultimately trying to not empower a market for someone who snaps up cheap running cars off craigslist and then parts the cars here. Every so often, we get someone who registers here and then plays terrorist: "If you don't let me part this car on your site, I'll ______!!!" Our intent is to preserve the cars, not thin the herd. Unrestricted, we'll have classifieds filled with prime parts for sale at the cost of fewer cars on the road. Every moonlighting dude with a socket set will be scouring craigslist for choice cars to dismantle.

This is all a gray area. If the car is to be parted on FEP, FEP gets to make the decision.

The restoration market in general is a loser. Unless you have a car that is 100k plus when its finished, a person is generally going to lose money in a restoration. Some cars are more suited for restorations than others, kinda like the food chain.

You hit it on the head, some of these cars will take 15-20k worth of work only to be sold for $6k if that person is lucky. This is true with most. I would get the whole "how can it cost that much to restore, if its only worth x when done?" all the time.

As to the unrestricted comment. I see where you are coming from, but wouldnt you rather have the opportunity to buy that part or that car rather than not know it exists? Popularity and rarity is what drives the market. Hell they made a ton of 69 Camaros, they're so popular they reproduce the bodies. Same with the Foxes, it was a nothing special car that was mass produced. It is so popular that it continues and probably will continue. The aftermarket will catch up to it, right now there is no need for them to because parts for the most part are still available.

There is numerous sides to the story, I was just trying to get an understanding for some of the things here. This place has so much knowledge, so much good information about these cars and I know it gets a bad rap, which I think is sad.

[TopGear85]

Why does it get a bad rap? I only belong to this site, so I'm confused about why anyone would have anything negative to say?

[SVOKip]

Hey FoxChassis, I have a question pertaining to this. What if you have car that still shows a lien on it and you go through all legal avenues with no success? The reason I am asking is because I purchased a car that is in very good mechanical condition, runs great and only needs paint. It shows a lien on it from the purchase date. The finance company that had the original lien has since gone out of business. I looked up through the state on which corporation bought out the finance company. I then sent the company two letters, one being certified mail asking about how I could go about finding out if the lien was still active and how much it was. I was told that they did not have a record of having that vehicle in their database. DMV told me I needed a letter releasing the lien, but the company said they couldn't do that since they had no record of the car. What do you do in a case like this? A title company won't even touch this car. Right now it is just sitting as if I were expecting a title genie to appear to me. BTW, it is an 86 SVO.

Opinions of the person doing the parting don't matter. Even if you do body and paint work for a living. Proof of catastrophic damage is what matters. No proof, no parting. No exceptions.

Cars don't get a thumbs up or down for parting via popular vote by non-FEP staff. They aren't allowed to be parted because of "title issues". They aren't allowed to be parted because you couldn't sell it whole, you think it's not worth fixing, it's "only a four cylinder", it has a dirty carpet and busted taillights, etc.

Who decides what savable is? The owners, administrators, and moderators of this site are who have the final say, if it's not completely obvious the car has sustained catastrophic damage that is not reasonably repairable.

Nobody gets special treatment here because they "know somebody". Nobody.

[Mike Croke]

Hey FoxChassis, I have a question pertaining to this. What if you have car that still shows a lien on it and you go through all legal avenues with no success? The reason I am asking is because I purchased a car that is in very good mechanical condition, runs great and only needs paint. It shows a lien on it from the purchase date. The finance company that had the original lien has since gone out of business. I looked up through the state on which corporation bought out the finance company. I then sent the company two letters, one being certified mail asking about how I could go about finding out if the lien was still active and how much it was. I was told that they did not have a record of having that vehicle in their database. DMV told me I needed a letter releasing the lien, but the company said they couldn't do that since they had no record of the car. What do you do in a case like this? A title company won't even touch this car. Right now it is just sitting as if I were expecting a title genie to appear to me. BTW, it is an 86 SVO.

...If the car needs thousands of dollars and the owner doesn't have the money, that by itself does not qualify as unsalvageable in the opinion of FEP and this site is not obligated to aid someone out of their own financial quagmire...

I apologize if this is worded poorly. Why didn't you do research before taking possession of the car? Getting the title issue fixed was clearly going to be a royal hassle potentially taking years? Based on this, FEP should allow someone to part an SVO here?

Most likely, the car will need a bonded title or something similar depending on your state's rules. It can be done through your state's DMV/MVD or a third party title company. The process will probably be aggravating, frustrating, and protracted. You may have to speak to numerous people at DMV/MVD (and potentially numerous branch offices) before finding the person who understands what process is required. You may have to call every title company in the state to find the one who knows how to get it done. However, by getting the title issue fixed, you will have saved the car through your diligence and efforts.

I know what a pain it is because when we bought our '84 Turbo RS Capri years ago, it came from out of state and had no title, only a bill of sale. That created an obstacle course for us to get it titled and registered here as we had to prove there was no lien on the car. A lot of phone calls, faxes, certified letters, and visits to the DMV/MVD finally pushed it through.

I think in cases like these, the primary opposition comes from DMV/MVD employees who are not familiar with the correct procedure and who look upon it as a lot of work for themselves.

[rancheronut]

Hey FoxChassis, I have a question pertaining to this. What if you have car that still shows a lien on it and you go through all legal avenues with no success? The reason I am asking is because I purchased a car that is in very good mechanical condition, runs great and only needs paint. It shows a lien on it from the purchase date. The finance company that had the original lien has since gone out of business. I looked up through the state on which corporation bought out the finance company. I then sent the company two letters, one being certified mail asking about how I could go about finding out if the lien was still active and how much it was. I was told that they did not have a record of having that vehicle in their database. DMV told me I needed a letter releasing the lien, but the company said they couldn't do that since they had no record of the car. What do you do in a case like this? A title company won't even touch this car. Right now it is just sitting as if I were expecting a title genie to appear to me. BTW, it is an 86 SVO.

ever heard of bonded title?
I had the same thing on my 1986 svo that I got 10yrs ago. after one saying no to release and the other saying can’t do with out a sign paper work.
I got the paper work to do a bonded title. i had the local sheriff do check on vin and had them sign the paper work, saying it was clean.i sent all the bonded paper work to the state dmv. about 6 to 12 weeks later. I got a letter from the state dmv, saying to take out a bond for $500.00 and take that paper work along with the paper work state dmv gave me to local dmv for plates. about 10 weeks later , I got a clear title.

[Hemlock]

Some of the other boards around call the people on this site extremists and snobs because most of the people here want to preserve and cherish the cars we own. That is one of the main reasons I love this site. I don't get crap here because I don't want to switch the back hatch on my car and my car isn't slagged as an imitation Mustang here. Most of the people that are mis-labeling this site are going off of word of mouth and not by visiting here. There are a few people that have had a bad run-in here because they had aero'ed cars or were mixing and matching parts or trying to part out a perfectly good car and then went away ass-hurt and talked crap about this site on all the other fox boards. Anyone who has actually spent any time here and loves their fox body knows better. I am glad that the fox Molesters and Crylons don't like it here!

Robert

[TheSVOTrust-MarkHaas]

Hey FoxChassis, I have a question pertaining to this. What if you have car that still shows a lien on it and you go through all legal avenues with no success? The reason I am asking is because I purchased a car that is in very good mechanical condition, runs great and only needs paint. It shows a lien on it from the purchase date. The finance company that had the original lien has since gone out of business. I looked up through the state on which corporation bought out the finance company. I then sent the company two letters, one being certified mail asking about how I could go about finding out if the lien was still active and how much it was. I was told that they did not have a record of having that vehicle in their database. DMV told me I needed a letter releasing the lien, but the company said they couldn't do that since they had no record of the car. What do you do in a case like this? A title company won't even touch this car. Right now it is just sitting as if I were expecting a title genie to appear to me. BTW, it is an 86 SVO.

Posted here (this thread) your dilemma becomes "perfect storm" to the title !(PUN INTENDED).

You (depending on the cost/benefit) could easily throw up your hands and say I give up ! Other might say - your involvement with "business licences", and reputation requires you to do it right. (Other states different laws)

If I'm going to respond to this it has to be on the VALUE (not preservation, legal or preservation.
ALL CARS HAVE VALUE They are the only thing Men keep (compared to women with cloths and shoes!

They have value for parts - when ratty to keep better cars running. They have value as low end projects - when the discriminating buyer turns down ANOTHER sees potential and takes it on. The rarest cars "survive" - but often are an amalgam of parts from similar year cars. Why - because they were revered over every owner that "restored" them to keep them.

I can only speak to the SVO world:
Now let me be devil advocate - NO car will be worth money if there is a plethora of parts ( NOS/used or 100K's on the road).
There isn't an owner here that when they see a car go to it's demise (be it totaled/rusted or crushed) that didn't think " I'm fighting the good fight - keeping my car/keeping it running/putting money into it!" (and thinking one less - my value when up)

Many will chime in - "I don't have cars as an investment". Or I drive my cars etc etc etc. We all will need to sell our cars at some time! Either for money, or when we die they will sell. For those that haven't been losing money on cars for the last 20 years - either will work! You can get your money out anytime - "there is always an ass for a seat".

When you have the wrong car it becomes harder. Pick the reason above.
My 7 Mile SVO was my "litmus paper" test of the lengths I would go for a car. (or not) First it was about owning it, then it was about selling it (remember it didn't exist). Five years after it sits, new owner forced to sell Comp Prep to get it, now unhealthy with wife that doesn't care about it and "available" back to me at 1/3 the price paid.

Now we can talk about the "buy high sell low" formula that many find them self in (due to life/economy or lack of cash)

P.S. Now that I've written this - I see what FoxChassis is saying ! Everyone has different pain levels for projects ! Cars are like animals - you can ether be a herder, trying to raise, feel and keep 100's alive or you can be a breeder with one stud and the world looking for it !

[TopGear85]

Some of the other boards around call the people on this site extremists and snobs because most of the people here want to preserve and cherish the cars we own. That is one of the main reasons I love this site. I don't get crap here because I don't want to switch the back hatch on my car and my car isn't slagged as an imitation Mustang here. Most of the people that are mis-labeling this site are going off of word of mouth and not by visiting here. There are a few people that have had a bad run-in here because they had aero'ed cars or were mixing and matching parts or trying to part out a perfectly good car and then went away ass-hurt and talked crap about this site on all the other fox boards. Anyone who has actually spent any time here and loves their fox body knows better. I am glad that the fox Molesters and Crylons don't like it here!

Robert

Thanks for the reply Robert, i am also a fan of how this site operates. Im glad the site was established with preservation being the focus.