That's what the buck tag and broadcast (build) sheets are for...
That's what the buck tag and broadcast (build) sheets are for...
But for what exactly?Originally Posted by FoxChassis
Did they install things like the special TRoof glass at Ford? That wasn't done at C&C, right?
It would be great talking with someone who worked the line when these cars went through.
-Mike
Your comments: "but I think ford would of kept count" and "when in fact it probably was" tells me you are only guessing, but hoping it is true.
The value of a car is based on its perceived value by the buyer. If a buyer's focus is on originality and your car has something that does not appear original based on known facts, it is up to the seller to prove the car is original. The buyer is going to demand that proof, because he will have to prove it when he sells the car.
So when there is proof, I would be in agreement with your theory. But for now, I would have to believe this car was modified after it was shipped to the dealer and Ford has no record or knowledge of it.
There are many examples of production oddities, but they are all backed by documentation. I have never seen or heard of any cars being pulled randomly by Ford and sent to get TTops without being originally ordered that way.
Bo
Last edited by BinaryBo; 08-24-2011 at 09:03 PM.
true but if ford had a parking lot with say 200 new cars parked on it, who's to say they couldn't send a shipment out to be converted? is there any real difference between a non TR code car and a TR code car other than a couple of tiny little letters and a piece of paper?
the fact is there are TTops cars out there without TR codes, no one can prove who did or didn't order them to be converted.
yes it's a theory and just as good as the theory that all real TTop cars have TR codes when they don't.
no, thats not what I'm saying, I'm saying that ford sent cars over to be converted and will know how many, they will also send over customer ordered TTop cars and know how many.
Last edited by FM2NOTCH; 08-24-2011 at 09:40 PM.
LOL...I don't get it. Both theorys are just as good, but the one that goes against your theory is a lie and there is no evidence to back up your theory.
Sorry, I pick on you, but I like you. My pet peave is there are too many thories and stories out there about these cars that have nothing to back them up. If enough people hear them they somehow become true.
Most of these stories seem to be based on trying to artifically influence the value of a vehicle. I owned a car that had TTops. It's not a Mustang, but it was made in 1978 and I have the original build sheet for the car. There was no mention of TTops on the build sheet. But I don't care, when I bought the car, I wanted TTops, I didn't care who installed them, so I paid what I wanted for the car. But when I sold it, I didn't try and tell the new owner that "I know there is nothing to prove it, but these TTops were a special order from the factory that bypassed all known ways of getting TTops". It is what is is.
My brother-in-law owns a nicely optioned 1983 GT. It has remnants of a sticker on the door that says "BOSS". Now him and his friends believe it is a 1983 BOSS Mustang. And its very rare because they have never heard of another one, other than a magazine ad that has the title "THE BOSS IS BACK". I tell him unless you have proof that Ford made a 1983 BOSS Mustang, and have the documentation to prove it, it's not a BOSS. But as you say...that's just my theory, and he has his own theory.
Bo
Last edited by BinaryBo; 08-24-2011 at 09:50 PM.
I would suspect that the dealer made more money selling a dealer installed T-Roof than a factory one. I worked for a dealer in the 80's and if a customer wanted a sunroof and there weren't any similar cars on the lot with one, they would charge the customer the factory roof price and have the guys in the shop install an aftermarket one. I'm sure that most of the dealer installed T-tops were done to make a sale and weren't done just to have in-stock.
My old SVO had a power moonroof that the original owner swore it was a special ordered from the factory that way. My guess is he went to the dealer and ordered a SVO and when he picked it up several weeks later, it had the moonroof. To him, it was factory installed.
Last edited by Mustang Marty; 08-24-2011 at 10:22 PM.
79 Mustang Coupe - Jade Green Metallic - 5.0 5Sp - Purchased 2006
17 Mustang Convertible - Triple Yellow Tri-Coat - 3.7l Auto - Purchased 2020
------------------------------------------------------------
01 Mustang - 3.8 Auto True Blue - Oct 2001- Apr 2022 RIP
85 ASC - McLaren 5.0 SC - ASC White - 5.0 CFI Auto - Owned 2004 - 2016
98 Mustang - White - 3.8 5pd - Owned 1998 - 2001
84 Mustang SSP - White - 5.0 5sp - Owned 1993 - 1998
84 SVO - Charcoal - 2.3t 5Sp - Owned 1989 -1992
79 Mustang Ghia - 5.0 Auto - Owned 1981 - 1986
68 Mustang Coupe - 302 Auto, Yellow - Owned 1980 - 1981
Why would Ford install a VERY infrequently-chosen option in a lot of 200 cars that nobody (yet) ordered?
Just as an example....1984 coupe....for about every 1000 of them produced less than 20 were ordered with a T-roof, at a suggested retail price of almost $1100 each. That's almost $1100 on an L coupe that started out at just under $7100 or an LX coupe at just under $7300.
Last edited by FoxChassis; 08-25-2011 at 12:00 AM.
evidence ,if it can be called evidence is the TTop cars showing up without a TR code, and you are right "it is what is" but who can say for certain what it is? The owners of the non Tr code cars I've seen here were not trying to sell, just showing there cars and then someone says, "well that car isn't real" just because it doesn't have a Tr code, it's not like he's trying to fake a BOSS 429 or something, it's a fox mustang and rather common, As for Ttops back in the day,there might be a fine line between rare and unpopular.
If anyone is looking for and sees a TTop coupe or GT or pace car for sale are they going to pass it up because it doesn't have a Tr code? I doubt it, some will play "purist" when it's convenient .
advertisement, if you are offering TTops why not show em at the dealerships. do you think ford lost money on every TTop car? I doubt it.
____________
Last edited by FM2NOTCH; 08-25-2011 at 12:21 AM.
So you think Dearborn Assembly made coupes that nobody ordered, and installed an option that sold less than 0.02% of the time, and sent these coupes to dealers that didn't order them, to advertise an option that was going to be discontinued (on that coupe body) the following year?
Last edited by FoxChassis; 08-25-2011 at 12:22 AM.
well if it's 1979 the answer is yes, but not just the coupesSo you think Dearborn Assembly made coupes that nobody ordered, and installed an option that sold less than 0.02% of the time, and sent these coupes to dealers that didn't order them, to advertise an option that was going to be discontinued (on that coupe body) the following year?
are you saying ford doesn't build cars first then sell them? then why when I go by a dealership do I see a lot full of cars that no customer ordered.
Last edited by FM2NOTCH; 08-25-2011 at 12:38 AM.
1979? The T-roof option wasn't even available on the Fox Capri and Mustang until the 1981 model year.
Do you know how infrequently that option was ordered. I do. I just ran the numbers. The HIGHEST selling was the 1982 Ghia hatchback, and even then it was an option chosen less than 2 out of 100 orders.
Ford doesn't build cars first, with options that aren't chosen often, and then hope they sell later. No company in their right mid would do that. They have a handle on what sells good and what doesn't -- that is after all what they use their sales data for -- and if they are so inclined to build first and sell later, they build with options that are the most desirable.
Last edited by FoxChassis; 08-25-2011 at 12:42 AM.
It's not evidence for your claim. It could have been dealer or customer installed. I can say its "NOT" a production option. The Ford database has no record of this car being ordered with TTops. But I am willing to digress if proof is provided.
I would consider buying it. I love TTops. But I dont think anyone is playing purist by disagreeing that Ford would do a change order on a car to have TTops installed after it was manufactured and before it was sent to its final destination, when there is no proof. That is a wild claim. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.
I have seen Ford do some wild things after the fact. 1970 Shelbys are an example. But it has a paper trail AND a logical reason why it was done.
I am willing to accept your claim, if you can prove it. But just because it "could have happen" doesn't mean I have to accept it or prove to you it didn't happen.
I am pushing back on this beacuse this section of the forum is about "production numbers and decoding". I think conjecture and speculation that is contrary to known facts, especially without adequate proof can be counter productive.
Bo
"Extrodinary claims require extrodinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
well I guess you got me on the year 1979, but not completely, there was a mention in this thread about the 3 pace cars with TTops in 1979 and no TR code either. ford built the 1981 cars starting sometime in 1980, so I wasn't that far off when I said 1979
"Ford doesn't build cars first, with options that aren't chosen often, and then hope they sell later. No company in their right mind would do that"
If ford knows TTops are not popular, why build them for any reason? by 1985 they seem to be real popular on GT's
Last edited by FM2NOTCH; 08-25-2011 at 01:19 AM.
conjecture and speculation, yes a lot of that going both ways, the purist have the marti report and the owners of non TR code TTop mustangs have their cars. "never and always" two words that shouldn't be used when talking about cars.
Last edited by FM2NOTCH; 08-25-2011 at 01:54 AM.
I still don't get it. The Marti Report (aka Ford Database) is speculation because why? Because it disagrees with your theory that a car (or several cars) received an option it was never ordered with, before it was delivered...and there is no proof?
Show me a window sticker, a change order, a Ford invoice to C&C, notes on an Eminger Invoice, a memo from Ford, a picture of the car before it was delivered to the dealer, a letter from a C&C employee stating that Ford initiated the order, anything that would justify your claim...I am open to the idea.
Bo
"I find your lack of logic disturbing" - Darth Vadar
Last edited by BinaryBo; 08-25-2011 at 03:08 AM.
Those three cars were specifically modified -- not just the roof but the engine (by Roush) as well -- for a specific purpose...to pace the Indianapolis 500. Ford sold T-roof Mustangs two years prior ('77 and '78 models) so they already had a relationship with Cars & Concepts.
Again, you're guessing, with no facts to back it up. "Seems to be" doesn't make it so. Here are more numbers, i.e. facts, for you...
For every 100 hatchbacks produced for 1985, about 16 of them were ordered with a T-roof.
No such thing. Those cars were destined for dealer delivery. There are no cars for Ford to pull just to send off for some conversions.
Let me tell you a story about the GP4 cars. Ford and ascMcLaren got together to do the Grand Prix IV cars. Well, Ford made a slight miscalculation and didn't have enough Capris to send to asc for conversion, so they had to beg borrow and steal Capris that were in the process of being built and then going to be shipped to dealers. They had to contact each dealer and finaggle the car away.
This is how TIGHT production is. There are no "batches of 200 cars" just sitting around.
-Mike
Last edited by negusm; 08-25-2011 at 09:46 PM.
Yes. Every last 1979 car was ordered by a dealer (okay, except for a handful of very early promo cars). They did not get cars "on loan" from Ford to pay when they sell. THEY PAY UPFRONT.
You don't understand the economics of car dealerships. Here's a quick run down of where the money goes (vey simple):
Dealer needs a bunch of cars for his lot. A new model year is approaching. He looks at what the factory is offering, he puts in an order for the cars he thinks he can sell.
The Factory says, show me the money. The dealer goes to the bank to get all those cars financed. So the Bank agrees. The factory builds and ships the cars. Dealer sends a big ass check to the factory UPON DELIVERY.
The dealer then sells what he can. People pay the dealer for cars, the dealer pays the bank, to pay the big ass loan. The more he pays, the less interest he pays...yadda yadda yadda.
Cars normally sell in 45 days or less. Because the factory knows this, they kick back to the dealer, the interest that accrued for the dealer for that 45 days. This is a guaranteed payment to the dealer whether he sells the car early, or late. So for being a good dealer and selling the factory's cars, for 45 days, he gets an interest free loan.
Now the dealer orders more cars and repeats the process.
If you disrupt this process. If the factory yanks cars from the dealer or if the factory changes cars on the dealer, holy hell breaks loose. It simply isn't done. There are no "extra cars" at the factory.
The biggest lie a dealer can tell you is "they forced me to take this one and I have to move it".
-Mike
Last edited by negusm; 08-25-2011 at 09:46 PM.
They were popular enough. Sometimes they don't know how popular something is until after the model year is over. Sometimes they want to make sure they match every option the competition has (TRoofs were on the Firebird then too). Sometimes there are small options that are just popular enough to pay for themselves and deemed enough draw to consumers to warrant keeping it.
It's a complicated question.
Edit: You only think they're popular because that is all you see that have survived. It is an ILLUSION. You only see that 85 GT TRoof cars are popular because TRoof cars are highly optioned by definition. Highly optioned cars are known to have HUGE survivability compared to low optioned cars.
They sell hair dresser Mustangs (Mustangs with nearly no options) by the BAZILLIANS. They sell them today just like they sold scads of them back in 1985. In 25 years, they are nearly extinct while the GTs clog the Auto Trader and Hemmings.
-Mike
Last edited by negusm; 08-26-2011 at 10:26 PM.
This is 100% true... I work at a Ford assembly plant and what we build are ALL sold units that will go to a dealer for stock to be sold or will go to a customer that placed a factory order and is waiting for their vehicle to arrive at the dealer... what finished vehicles that sit outside after assembly are waiting for shipment to the dealer by transport or by rail.
Now back to BOOMER's '82 GT... with his car being a stock dealer unit and being sold 10/12/82, the '83 Mustangs were on the dealer lots by this point... maybe the person that purchased this GT prefered the '82 over the '83 styling and wanted a '82 GT t-top, dealer didn't have one in stock and couldn't find one on another dealer lot to do a dealer trade so then the selling dealer offered the C&C t-top conversion... I can't see Shanahan Ford sending this GT back to C&C in Michigan to do the conversion, someone local must have done it with the C&C kit that was provided.
Past Mustangs:
1965 "K" Code Coupe... 289/271HP 4 speed Poppy Red
1986 GT... Canyon Red 5 speed
2002 GT... Silver Automatic
2003 Mach 1... Azure Blue 5 speed
Current Cars:
1986 Mustang LX 5.0L Coupe
1996 Escort LX 2 Door
2011 Ford Fusion SEL
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