Original or restored - Where is the line?

[Greg D]

OK, I know there are likely no real "rules" to this one (yes some would be obvious). At what point does a car cross the line to restored? If you have a nice survivor what imperfections do you just leave or you might as well just tear it all down and start over?
The real "nuts & bolts" of this is my 85 GT. The outside paint is likely a 9 out of 10 and is original, No dings, interior 8 of 10. click the album to see the pics. The paint on the bottom of the car looks 90% as good as the top.
The only non stock items are the air filter & catback
What I have done to the car;

weatherstripping
retouched the red piping
repainted some of the charcoal
replaced a few decals
gave it a real good cleaning
touched up a few paint chips
replaced the logo in the steering wheel
replaced the door mouldings (the originals had been cut on the ends)

What it needs done;

carb rebuild - runs fine, leaks (should I jet it a touch richer to avoid a too lean problem with the minor mods?)
detail the engine compartment (chipped paint on brackets & lower air cleaner, "dirty" aluminum)
repaint the rear axle housing
recondition the air cleaner lid
carpet is a little bit faded
dash is discolored

It sounds kind of nuts but I am concerned with messing up it's originality by overdoing it. Should I just maintain & repair it as necessary and leave well enough alone? Do I go ahead and finish all the details on my list to make it near perfect? Or does "restoring" just some parts really classify as maintaining the car? Hopefully this will also help others with their cars. Or being 79-86 collectors do WE set these standards?
Thanks for the input guys.
Greg

[Blue86]

I guess it depends on what you are planning to do with the car. In my opinion, restoring a car is bringing it back to near original condition. There are SO many people who use this term incorrectly. There is restoring and there is modifying. I struggle with a similar thing with my 86 notchback. There are original parts on it that either need replacing or cosmetic repairs. Let's face facts here, unless you are talking about an ultra low mileage car, parts do wear out & need replacement & restoration.

I've come to terms with the fact that the car was driven and enjoyed by the original owner. I'm thankful that he kept it in such nice shape over the years. I realize that it was used as transportation and that the open road sometimes can be hard on a vehicle. I've been carefully restoring certain things on the car. Mostly for my own personal satisfaction and enjoyment. When entering it in a show, can it be considered "unrestored"? That is open for debate. I choose the work I do on my car because, I would like to make it close to how it was when new. At some point I had to realize & accept, that it would never be new again and just learn to enjoy it for what it is. I feel fortunate to own two nice examples. My GT is my "modified" car and my LX is my "unrestored", "original (or as close as possible)", "stock" etc... car. I love working on both of them!

[FoxChassis]

In this forum, "restoring" is putting the car back to as exactly how it left the factory.

This forum is for discussion of factory-stock restoration, not modification.

[Mazlem]

I would say if the cat-back exhaust you did is factory style, then along with everything else you've done that constitutes factory-stock restoration. If you converted to true duals I'd say you're doing a light restoration and it's no longer original.

Now what constitutes original is probably debatable. IMO maintenance still leaves it original, but rebuilding parts, (such as the carb) should be documented. Touching up paint and actually replacing parts puts it into lightly restored territory. To have a truly original car I think it must be un-restored but some maintenance has to be allowed; otherwise you may not be able to drive it up onto the block for the judges / commentators to pick apart! :)

[Greg D]

One thing I need to mention after Foxchassis post (yes I agree with him). I will absolutely NOT mod this car.
The cat back on the car is stock style, it came on the car. The air filter, well it goes with the better breathing catback and I like the reuseable filters if the catback was stock.
Rejetting the carb is not intended to get more performance from the car, just to protect my engine from combustion temps that are too high.
I would like to find an original catback for it.
Now lets toss this out there, I would like to find a NOS set of louvers for her, if I had bought the car new they would be on it. They were also a dealer install and not as built anyway.

[sowaxeman]

I think its simple really....if you have to do things to it to put it back to original status, then its "Restored". There is nothing wrong with that. I tell people that my '85 GT Vert is a 36k mile surviovor (to a large degree it is) but in reality its restored. I had to find and install the following to make it original:

10 Hole Wheels & Tires (bought it with 16" Ponies)
Motorcraft 1985 Plug Wires
Motorcraft Duraspark Ignition Module
Motorcraft Gray Distributor Cap
Door Panels Re-furbed to cover aftermarket speakers

Is it original....yes. Has it been restored as such...yes.

Now my 1982 GT, its 99% original/survivor/unresotored. The only thing changed was the original battery, spark plugs and carb rebuilt. As for rebuilding a carb, I don't veiw that as a restore but more of a necessity to keep it running.

[Greg D]

This was a reply in the other forum I posted this in (some of you are on both like me). Makes a very good point (yes my 85 was chosen for the Reference Gallery there).
I just thought it was a worthy addition to this discussion.

"One thing I would suggest before you do any "freshening" (i.e. repainting or refinishing, etc.) is to take some detailed "before" pictures so that you have some reference shots showing the original finishes that were there (especially on underhood areas, etc). It's easy to paint over things like factory grease pencil markings, paint stampings, original metal finishes that are difficult to reproduce later if you decide to do a detailed restoration someday.

One of my goals for the reference gallery is to get lots of this stuff documented and posted there for use by people interested in restoration."

Being collectors/restorers of these cars maybe we should be the ones to set some standards while there are some survivors still out there. I saw a; never registered, near mint (it's 45+ years old, OK?) 1965 Mustang GT, fully optioned, Black, Red interior, K code, 4 speed, (my dream 65 Fastback BTW). at a show once, does this car even have a value or is it just "priceless" (would be to me). I gave up on 65-73 Mustangs because things have become nearly insane on them. This is one reason I ended up with Fox Bodies. Maybe we should be the ones to deal with this before it is out of control.
Another worthy post from the other forum;

There is certainly a line somewhere between "original survivor" and "restored," but I've never been able to figure out exactly where it is. The judges I have talked to at shows don't agree on it, either.

To some, a car should have zero paint work (body or under the hood) to be considered original. (In this person's view, a car with flaking original paint on the valve covers will win in an original class, over a car with perfectly repainted flawless covers). Vintage Corvette guys in particular seem to really fall in this group.

To others, some painting under the hood is considered "detailing," and as long as it is done right, to replicate the original finishes and markings, is acceptable and the car can still compete in the original classes. Hoses, belts and plug wires need not be the originals, but should have the correct markings.

Some take a broader view and allow paint work on the body as well (touch up or minor repair, again if it is done right). My Mustang falls in this category, having had its trunk lid and part of one door repainted to fix some minor issues years ago. Most people are unaware, but technically it is not as "unrestored" as a 100% original paint car.

Most people feel that once a car has been fully repainted, it ceases to become original and becomes "restored."

I am not "asking permission" to recondition what needs attended to on my car, what I see as flaws I will fix. I am not trying to put it on a pedestal above others. I really don't even personally care if it's valuable ( I like the car and wanted one in 1985 when I worked at a Ford dealer). I am interested first and foremost in the preservation and appreciation of these cars.
Thanks again for the discussion guys!

[dburdyshaw]

Another term that comes into play is "period correct."

There was a Challenger from the early 70s at Barrett-Jackson that had a tach on the hood. It didnt come with it from the factory ---- but it could have ---- so the car was deemed acceptable as this item was "period correct" for that time of car.

If I put a 1980 console into a base 1980 Mustang, is it now "modified?"

___________________

Here's another scenario:

The year is 1982 and you buy a brand new Mustang GT. A year later somebody really scratches up one fender with a shopping cart ---- and you have that entire fender repainted ---- and the new paint job matches perfectly.

Is the car still 100% original?

[85ksp]

I agree with blue 86 100%..

[85GTTops]

Another term that comes into play is "period correct."

There was a Challenger from the early 70s at Barrett-Jackson that had a tach on the hood. It didnt come with it from the factory ---- but it could have ---- so the car was deemed acceptable as this item was "period correct" for that time of car.

If I put a 1980 console into a base 1980 Mustang, is it now "modified?"



I would say that is modified because the trim code on the door doesn't match the options on the car. Period correct or not, it doesn't match what came from the factory. I wrestled with this regarding removal of the cruise control (due to difficulties finding a steering wheel).



Here's another scenario:

The year is 1982 and you buy a brand new Mustang GT. A year later somebody really scratches up one fender with a shopping cart ---- and you have that entire fender repainted ---- and the new paint job matches perfectly.

Is the car still 100% original?

I would say it depends on what 100% original means. If 100% original means "all parts comply with original factory requirements (i.e. what Ford would use)", paint would be included, provided it matches the paint in both texture and color.

[dburdyshaw]

As to the "modified" question, I think that, if you asked 10 people, you'd get five modified and five not modified ---- or something like that. I've asked a few people and gotten both answers. If I was in a really "purist" mood, I'd call it modified.

As for the second scenario, I wouldnt lose sleep over having a fender repainted (well, most days I wouldnt).

I'd do what brought me enjoyment 99 days out of 100.

[sowaxeman]

I'd do what brought me enjoyment 99 days out of 100.

AH HAH!!! That is the voice of reason right there :tu:

[WHTLTHR79RS]

Sooooo... your darn headliner foam rots away, and the headliner falls down. Do you leave the headliner off, and just have the brown board showing, or do you get new, correct material and put it back to the way it was from the factory? My car, at 29+ years old, and 92K miles, still has the orginal (4) headlights, all coolant hoses, all brake pads and shoes, all exhaust, minus the cat( it's sleeping in the attic) and even the windshield wiper arms and floor mats. It is ready for some attention, but again I don't know where to begin. The interior white quarter panel plastic is turning yellow, and the panels are drying out and flaking away. The winshield is broken, and the RF side marker is also broke ( thanks dear wife). Mu motorcycle fell over against the drivers door 20 years ago and left a small dent. On the upside, I did win 1st place in "peoples choice" at the Seattle Mustang round-up this year.

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/photoPost/data/759/DSC05407.JPG

Neil

[dburdyshaw]

(Applause Applause Applause) ... and I'd get new (or NOS) correct fabric and have it put back the way it was when new. (IMHO)

[WHTLTHR79RS]

What are you trying to say above..^^^^^^^^^^^

[Greg D]

Nice Capri, Neil!
I will as time goes by naturally maintain my car. In my personal opinion reconditioning items on it in a stock fashion does not constitute a "restoration", just maintenance. Can't really call it a restored car just because you fixed some chipped paint on an accessory bracket.
I just thought as our cars become more collectible this would be an interesting discussion and give us some things to think about. As collectors of these cars we should be the ones to lay some of the "ground rules".