Word from Marti, why the Cobra numbers were off...

[02Z06]

Just got this from Kevin. I asked him when the '80 reports would be ready, and why we had seen two different numbers for Cobras. This is what I got:

"Christopher, We don't have any progress to report on the 1980 reports. It will likely still be 3-6 months before we are able to do those. As far as the discrepancy on the 79 Cobras, the higher number is correct. The lower number is for Cobras without the tu-tone option and the higher number includes with the tu-tone option. If you know the person who has the lower figure, have them contact us. We should remake his report with the higher number."

So 79MustangCobra, you can have your report remade if you'd like.

[tman1257]

So the tu-tone was an option then by what Kevin says. Why is this not listed then in my report?

[Hissing Cobra]

Well, this could get sticky. That may be their interpretation of the numbers but in every piece of literature that I've seen, it states the the Cobra was offered only in two-toned colors, with the bottom half being satin black. Also, I've never seen a solid color Cobra. Do you guys believe this explanation?

Now to the numbers. If there were 16,641 with solid coloring and 17,579 with the two-toned "option", does that mean that there were actually 34,220 made?

Something's not jiving here and I'm now wondering if I wasted my time on the report.

[gregpro50]

All 79 Cobras were 2-tone.

[negusm]

All 79 Cobras were 2-tone.

Even the black ones?

http://www.ascmclarencoupe.com/Literature/DealerOnly/ProductFactBooks/1979_FordProductBook%20015.jpg

check the Cobra Alternate Package...

-Mike

[gregpro50]

I cant be positive but I did have a black '79 once and it still was two-tone with glossy paint on top and satin on the bottom. I have never ever seen a colored one without the two tone and everything I have ever read says the same. Even in 80-81 they were all two tone.

[TuxStang]

Now to the numbers. If there were 16,641 with solid coloring and 17,579 with the two-toned "option", does that mean that there were actually 34,220 made?I understand he says the higher number includes tu-tones ... so 17.579 made ... though i'm also curious about those single color Cobras ... nothing mentionned about this in my literature but special orders could always happen.

[Hissing Cobra]

I understand he says the higher number includes tu-tones ... so 17.579 made ... though i'm also curious about those single color Cobras ... nothing mentionned about this in my literature but special orders could always happen.

Well, if there's 16,641 made WITHOUT 2-toned paint and 17,579 made WITH 2-toned paint, wouldn't you have to add them together for a cumulative total of 34,220?

Something's not jiving here. If you read the sales brochure on the 1979 Ford Mustang, it lists:

Black window frames, moldings and lower body

Wide Black bodyside moldings with dual color-coodinated accent stripe inserts

Again, I'm not trying to stir the pot here but I've NEVER even seen so much as a picture of a solid colored Cobra. Even the FORD promotional pictures are all two toned (though some of those didn't have Black grills, had the COBRA decals at the backs of the doors, and had a single pinstripe in the Black bodyside molding.)

In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter about the production number. What matters is that they're selling these reports and it's very possible that some of the information is not correct at all.

[Sellis1012]

I am definitely putting spending any money on the Marti report on indefinite hold. Something stinks in Denmark. And it aint' the cheese. All 79 Cobras were tu-tone. I've owned two, seen six others live in the past 20 years, and seen a dozen in pictures of actual privately owned Cobras and all were tu-tone. I have serious doubts that either the 16 or 17 grand produced is right. I am inclined to return to the old number of around 7,000 made. It makes a whole lot more sense when you think about it. You add up nonexistant number of junkyard sightings and the incredibly small number of actual Cobras in existence today and NO WAY was there over 17,000 made. AS for over 30,000 made, that's as likely as Britney Spears' kids turning out normal. Is it possible that Marti has his numbers confused with total 79-81 Cobras made?

[Hissing Cobra]

I don't know if his numbers are confused with ALL '79-'81 Cobras but I just spent the $75.00 for the Deluxe report and reproduction door sticker, and I'm not even sure if everything that I've paid for is accurate. How can there be different TOTAL production figures?

I know that there have been oddball Cobras produced (Greg's NON-TURBO 4 cylinder is one) and that some have come with Black hoodscoops instead of body colored scoops (David's - 79mustangcobra), so I would imagine that anything could have been possible. That being said, I have never seen another '79 Cobra in person but every picture that I've seen (factory promo pic's included) had Black lower body treatment.

As for the 7,000 or so estimated units, I don't know about that either. I do know that I've seen plenty of Pace Cars in my time and usually see 2 or 3 per year, while I've never seen any Cobras.

I'm still waiting for my report so I'll post it when it arrives.

[Sellis1012]

As for the 7,000 or so estimated units, I don't know about that either. I do know that I've seen plenty of Pace Cars in my time and usually see 2 or 3 per year, while I've never seen any Cobras.

My point exactly. Something is fishy. And only 11,000 pacecars made. You know what though, it doesn't really matter. We know that even if 50,000 79 Cobras were made, there are only a handful left. That is the hard fact.

[roush235]

Well we've got some controversy in the world of 79 Cobras. One of these days I will order a Marti Report and then we can ponder over how many straight six coupes were made. That number will REALLY be exciting. Just kidding.

Here are a couple more thoughts. If Kevin Marti's verbiage was switched around to say 16,xxx was the two-tone total and 17,xxx was the total of all cars (including the "one-tone" cars, i.e. those that were all black), that might make more sense. However I also tend to think that one-tone cars really were not, rather they were shiny black over satin black. But percentage-wise it seems reasonable that there could have been about 900 all black Cobras-- roughly 5% of the total. With 15 total colors available, 5% in (all) black seems about right.

One other number crunch: total 79 production has been reported at 369,936. It seems reasonable that Cobra production would be the 16,xxx or 17,xxx figure (equating to 4.5 to 5%) as opposed to only 5000-7000 (which would be less than 2%).

[roush235]

All of the above post is just speculation on my part. I think the reason we see so many more Pace Cars is that it was 'clearly' the model to save. Wasn't there a big to-do over the 78 Corvette pace car the year before? Cobras were just the "most desirable" existing model in an era where "most desirable" was having a hard time respectability-wise, compared to what was happening a decade before. So no one kept them or envisioned us having an online chat about them nearly 30 years later....

One thing I agree with, there aren't many around. You guys who have them are justifiably proud of what you own.

[Mustang Marty]

Also other than the decals, there is nothing on the exterior of the 79 cobras that make them any different than a regular Mustang. Over the years with accidents, paint jobs, and changing tastes many of them could not look like cobras the last 15-20 years. That could be why they are seldom seen.

[FoxChassis]

http://www.ascmclarencoupe.com/Literature/DealerOnly/ProductFactBooks/1979_FordProductBook%20015.jpg
That page says the "Cobra Option" is "Not available with....tu-tone paint treatment." The next page says the "Tu-Tone Paint Treatment" is "Not available with Cobra Package."

The 'dealer showroom brochure' says the "lower body" is black but it does not call that black the "Tu-Tone Paint Treatment". It also does not say what "lower body" consists of.

HOWEVER, all Body/Buck Tags that I have seen that have the "CBR"/"Cobra" option code also have the "TT" (Tu-Tone Paint Treatment) option code.

[negusm]

That page says the "Cobra Option" is "Not available with....tu-tone paint treatment." The next page says the "Tu-Tone Paint Treatment" is "Not available with Cobra Package."


Yeah, I think that is dealer speak for..."if you check off the Cobra Option, don't bother checking off the Tu-Tone option...cause it doesn't make sense since the Cobra Package by default already has the TuTone built into it".

However, knowing Ford, they did something screwy early in the ordering process. The fact book I have is the January 79 revision.

My guess is that some of the cars did get the TuTone box checked and in 1978 maybe their computer didn't spit it back out...if it was even computerized at all. So they got recorded with both options checked.

I would ask Marti if he knows why some Cobras are marked with TuTone option...were they early build cars or scattered throughout or something.

-Mike

[02Z06]

My point exactly. Something is fishy. And only 11,000 pacecars made. You know what though, it doesn't really matter. We know that even if 50,000 79 Cobras were made, there are only a handful left. That is the hard fact.

I think the difference in the survival rates can be attributed to expected collectability too. Look at how many '84.5 GT350s are still running around compared to the total number of '84 GTs. It seems like 1/2 of the '84s for sale at a given time are the GT350s, probably because people thought or expected they would be a collectors item and kept better care of them. I think on a larger scale it's the reason why there are so many nice older corvettes that are unrestored vs nice mustangs. They made more mustangs, but corvettes were more expensive and more "prized" and generally kept better care of. The corvette got the garage spot before the mustang. Probably the same scenario for a Pace car vs a Cobra. The Cobra would be sitting outside if there were a Pace Car to put in the garage. I don't think 17k is a far fetched number. I bet '80 Cobras are less than 10k and 81s less than 5k.

[negusm]

Well, if there's 16,641 made WITHOUT 2-toned paint and 17,579 made WITH 2-toned paint, wouldn't you have to add them together for a cumulative total of 34,220?


That's not what 02Z06 posted...

The lower number is for Cobras without the tu-tone option and the higher number includes with the tu-tone option.

This may be hard to describe but you guys are confusing the Tu-Tone "option" with the Tu-Tone "treatment".

The Cobra package clearly includes a Tu-Tone treatment within it. No need to checkoff the Tu-Tone option to get it. However, maybe some cars were recorded as getting both options....because people (either dealers or Ford) were confused back then too about it.

Suppose I have an 86 Mustang GT. We ALL know that that car came with the 5.0...so you really don't say...I have an 86 Mustang with the GT option and the 5.0 option. The GT option contains the 5.0 option.

HOWEVER, It's quite possible that internally Ford checks off a few extra options in their database...so when Marti gets to compile his stuff for 86, he may have some 86 GTs marked with only the GT option in the database and some marked with the GT option AND the 5.0 option in the database. He then, when compiling his numbers, needs to recognize this.

I've dealt with enough corporate databases to know that this kind of crap is very very real. It's probably going to take a while before he gets the bugs worked out.

-Mike

[Hissing Cobra]

I agree. I don't think that the 17,000+ is a far fetched number either. I agree about the Pace Cars too. Those were considered collector's items when they were released to the public and as such, many were stored away. There's still plenty of low mileage originals out there.

My whole point of contention is that we're paying for these reports and the facts/figures may not even be accurate. If 500 people paid $45.00 for the deluxe report, think about how much money was paid out for inaccurate information.

I'm hoping my report doesn't have a different number than the others.

[negusm]

My whole point of contention is that we're paying for these reports and the facts/figures may not even be accurate. If 500 people paid $45.00 for the deluxe report, think about how much money was paid out for inaccurate information.

True, but I think the majority of the report's value is in the build/option list for the specific car. The roll-up totals are nice but I wouldn't condemn the whole report if they are off.

Saying this, we still need to watch these numbers and get as many report numbers as possible to find descrepancies. While Marti is probably going to do his best, we are still the front line for catching all this stuff.

And I do believe that Marti will be extremely meticulous with the numbers. If nothing else, the Mustang crowd seems to live and die on the "rarity" of their cars. I'm sure he's heard plenty from the classic Mustang people if they don't agree with what he's publishing.

-Mike

[tman1257]

Would an "elite" report break down exactly how many were made with each engine/trans combo or would it show the same numbers we are already seeing?

[02Z06]

Alrighty, I emailed him and got things cleared up. Roush235 was right, the discrepancy was the black cars:
"Chris, Well, I found something interesting by doing a little more digging. All the Cobras were tu-toned as you suggested. The terminology used in some of the material I was looking at suggested they were thinking of doing the tu-tone delete. Instead, what the difference represents is what is known as the Cobra Alternate. This is the black Cobra with the green exterior accents. So now you know there were 938 of these produced.

Incidentally, I should have all the original invoices for these cars. I bought the entire collection of invoices that Lois Eminger had and I believe it included the 79-81 Mustangs. Time will tell. They are all warehoused on pallets until I can get more space to access them."

[cobrstang]

938 Black Cobra's with the green graphics or 938 black Cobra's total? The black cars came with more than just the green graphics.

[negusm]

938 Black Cobra's with the green graphics or 938 black Cobra's total? The black cars came with more than just the green graphics.

He said "Cobra Alternate". I posted that above. That order is a "special cobra". Black in and out with green stripes. So I think that 938 would not include the black cobras with the "Normal" Cobra package...which had red stripes.

Hey, while you have him looking up stuff...ask him if there were any 79 Cobras in NOTCHBACK.

-Mike

[cobrstang]

I didn't notice that the alternate package specified the green graphics.

[Hissing Cobra]

Alrighty, I emailed him and got things cleared up. Roush235 was right, the discrepancy was the black cars:
"Chris, Well, I found something interesting by doing a little more digging. All the Cobras were tu-toned as you suggested. The terminology used in some of the material I was looking at suggested they were thinking of doing the tu-tone delete. Instead, what the difference represents is what is known as the Cobra Alternate. This is the black Cobra with the green exterior accents. So now you know there were 938 of these produced.

Incidentally, I should have all the original invoices for these cars. I bought the entire collection of invoices that Lois Eminger had and I believe it included the 79-81 Mustangs. Time will tell. They are all warehoused on pallets until I can get more space to access them."

That makes me feel much better! So I guess it's all set with a production number of 17,579 for ALL Cobras in 1979. I'm betting that the '80 has less and that 1981 has the least of all.

[kj_80Cobra]

Da**, my brother was stupid for getting rid of his '79 Black and Green Cobra if that 938 figure is correct.

[tman1257]

Just for the heck of it I emailed Kevin and asked him if he knew how many Cobras came with the turbo 4 since mine only showed production numbers for the whole year on that motor. I'm kind of curious on that.

[02Z06]

He said "Cobra Alternate". I posted that above. That order is a "special cobra". Black in and out with green stripes. So I think that 938 would not include the black cobras with the "Normal" Cobra package...which had red stripes.

Hey, while you have him looking up stuff...ask him if there were any 79 Cobras in NOTCHBACK.

-Mike

I asked him, no Notchback cobras... It was a longshot.

[negusm]

I asked him, no Notchback cobras... It was a longshot.

Remember to ask that for the 80 and 81s.

There was a notchback Conra we saw on here. Not sure if it was real or not. It had green striping if I remember.

-Mike

[7t9cobra]

my 79 cobra was single-toned gloss black. atleast thats how it looked when i got it. it was in rough shape, but im almost 100% sure it was solid gloss black

[negusm]

my 79 cobra was single-toned gloss black. atleast thats how it looked when i got it. it was in rough shape, but im almost 100% sure it was solid gloss black


What color striping did it have?

[onedoobie]

Well I'll throw mine in the mix as well its a 79 tu-toned black with the orange side stickers and no hood snake.-John

[negusm]

Well I'll throw mine in the mix as well its a 79 tu-toned black with the orange side stickers and no hood snake.-John

I'm thinking the orange stickered black cars got the tu-tone. Those are the normal Cobras.

The green stripped/stickered black cars were not tu-toned and are all the special alternate packaged Cobras.

We just need to keep an eye out for those green striped Cobras.

-Mike

[tman1257]

I'm thinking the orange stickered black cars got the tu-tone. Those are the normal Cobras.

The green stripped/stickered black cars were not tu-toned and are all the special alternate packaged Cobras.

We just need to keep an eye out for those green striped Cobras.

-Mike

Were these colors carried out into 80 and 81 also? I think I know where a black 80 or 81 cobra is sitting but I don't know if it has the green graphics.

[79mustangcobra]

All Cobra's came with 1C Black on the bottom.

If the Cobra is 1C Black on top then it will be 1C on bottom like Dale Hart's

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa306/bassdb/79cobra.jpg

[FoxChassis]

But do the 1C '79 Cobras have "TT" (Tu-Tone Paint Treatment) on the Body/Buck Tag, and "1C 1C" (Black exterior paint color w/ Black Tu-Tone Paint Treatment) on the VC Label?

[cobrstang]

But do the 1C '79 Cobras have "TT" (Tu-Tone Paint Treatment) on the Body/Buck Tag, and "1C 1C" (Black exterior paint color w/ Black Tu-Tone Paint Treatment) on the VC Label?

The buildsheet is not too good, but here are pics from mine.

[FoxChassis]

There it is....1C Black exterior paint with the TT (Tu-Tone Paint Treatment) code as well. Is that from a '79 Cobra?

It seems to be a well-optioned Cobra...moonroof, rear wiper, air conditioning, rear defrost. No power locks or windows though.

[Sellis1012]

Well I'll throw mine in the mix as well its a 79 tu-toned black with the orange side stickers and no hood snake.-John


Welcome fellow cobra owner! Have you registered here?
http://www.earlycobra.com/

[tman1257]

Welcome fellow cobra owner! Have you registered here?
http://www.earlycobra.com/

How often does this site get updated? I just finally sent my info on my car.

[Sellis1012]

How often does this site get updated? I just finally sent my info on my car.

There is a banner on the site that says it was last updated end of October. I have some collectible pictures I need to send him.

[cobrstang]

There it is....1C Black exterior paint with the TT (Tu-Tone Paint Treatment) code as well. Is that from a '79 Cobra?

It seems to be a well-optioned Cobra...moonroof, rear wiper, air conditioning, rear defrost. No power locks or windows though.

I kick myself every time I see a nice Cobra because I had to sell this one earlier this year. It was in very original condition that had sat for about 8 years before I bought it. Minor rust in front floors and LH quarter, otherwise very solid and complete. Here are a couple pics.

[Sellis1012]

I kick myself every time I see a nice Cobra because I had to sell this one earlier this year. It was in very original condition that had sat for about 8 years before I bought it. Minor rust in front floors and LH quarter, otherwise very solid and complete. Here are a couple pics.

Sorry you had to sell it. How much did it go for? Did you list it here?

[02Z06]

How often does this site get updated? I just finally sent my info on my car.
Yeah guys, it's been a while since the last update. I've got about 10 more cars to register, about half have pictures. I've just been swamped with the holidays and a few cars that I'm selling/buying. So if you've sent in info and don't see it on the site yet dont fret, it will be up there asap!

[FoxChassis]

Chris, if you want help with your 'site, let me know.

[tman1257]

Yeah guys, it's been a while since the last update. I've got about 10 more cars to register, about half have pictures. I've just been swamped with the holidays and a few cars that I'm selling/buying. So if you've sent in info and don't see it on the site yet dont fret, it will be up there asap!

I sent 2 emails to you, one with the info and one more with a couple of pictures.