84-86 LTD/Marquis fuel tank and pump

[paul78zephyr]

Hi all,
No, I did no get rid of the Zephyr and get an LTD. But I am curious about why the LTD/Marquis sedan tank and pump/hanger/sender changed after 5/85. This is based on info from Quanta (gastanks.com) and Airtex (airtexproducts.com). The Airtex info is curious as the in-tank pump/hanger assembly changes after 5/85 but the in-tank pump itself and filter sock remains the same. So it seems they changed the tank and the hanger to accomodate it, but why? The pre 5/85 and after tanks look identical to me. The pump/hanger/senders look only very slightly different. Any insight?

Thanks,
Paul

CFI LTD/Marquis Sedan
84 - to 5/85
Tank:
http://www.gastanks.com/prodinfo.asp?number=F-16B
Pump/hanger/sender
http://www.airtexproducts.com/cgi-bin/AIRTEXVEHICLEE.EXE?OURPART=E2131S&GETSECTION=FP&GETMAKE=FORD&GETMODEL=LTD,%20LTD%20CROWN&GETAPP=22897

From 5/85 - 86
Tank:
http://www.gastanks.com/prodinfo.asp?number=F-16C
Pump/hanger/sender
http://www.airtexproducts.com/cgi-bin/AIRTEXVEHICLEE.EXE?OURPART=E2132S&GETSECTION=FP&GETMAKE=FORD&GETMODEL=LTD,%20LTD%20CROWN&GETAPP=22897

[paul78zephyr]

Hi all,
No, I did no get rid of the Zephyr and get an LTD. But I am curious about why the LTD/Marquis sedan tank and pump/hanger/sender changed after 5/85. This is based on info from Quanta (gastanks.com) and Airtex (airtexproducts.com). The Airtex info is curious as the in-tank pump/hanger assembly changes after 5/85 but the in-tank pump itself and filter sock remains the same. So it seems they changed the tank and the hanger to accomodate it, but why? The pre 5/85 and after tanks look identical to me. The pump/hanger/senders look only very slightly different. Any insight?

Thanks,
Paul

CFI LTD/Marquis Sedan
84 - to 5/85
Tank:
http://www.gastanks.com/prodinfo.asp?number=F-16B
Pump/hanger/sender
http://www.airtexproducts.com/cgi-bin/AIRTEXVEHICLEE.EXE?OURPART=E2131S&GETSECTION=FP&GETMAKE=FORD&GETMODEL=LTD,%20LTD%20CROWN&GETAPP=22897

From 5/85 - 86
Tank:
http://www.gastanks.com/prodinfo.asp?number=F-16C
Pump/hanger/sender
http://www.airtexproducts.com/cgi-bin/AIRTEXVEHICLEE.EXE?OURPART=E2132S&GETSECTION=FP&GETMAKE=FORD&GETMODEL=LTD,%20LTD%20CROWN&GETAPP=22897

[LTDScott]

Hmm. No idea here. I thought they were all the same, except that there were 16 and 20 gallon tanks available.

[LTDScott]

Hmm. No idea here. I thought they were all the same, except that there were 16 and 20 gallon tanks available.

[Chuck W]

On kind of the same note. One of the EFI LTD tanks would work under an 80 Z7 correct?

[paul78zephyr]

Hello,
The CFI tank for an 84-86 Fox LTD/Marquis WAGON will fit any 78-81 F/Z. The in-tank pump that is used in these tanks, however, is a low pressure pump that will not work with the 5.0L SEFI system if thats wjhat you are getting at.

Related 4EP threads:
http://www.foureyedpride.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17756&highlight=

http://www.foureyedpride.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14179&highlight=

(note these are for a SEDAN conversion, using wagon tank for F/Z is a bit different but same principal)

Paul

[Chuck W]

Cool-
So I need to use a wagon tank...gotcha. Not looking for a 5.0 EFI conversion though, and I can do what I need to mod the hangers for the "larger" single pump, or do a two pump system. I modded the hanger in my 83 Tbird for a 255hp a while back.

I'm looking to convert mine to EFI (on what ever engine winds up in there) and I just wasn't sure what EFI tank would work under the F/Z coupes.

Thanks for the info.

[paul78zephyr]

Chuck,
Your last post was confusing to me. What EXACTLY are you doing with your 80 Z-7? Are you putting an EFI engine in it? What kind?

Paul

[Chuck W]

Chuck,
Your last post was confusing to me. What EXACTLY are you doing with your 80 Z-7? Are you putting an EFI engine in it? What kind?

Paul

Yes, it will be EFI, just not a 5.0 (or 5.8 ) V8. Most likely a DP-EDIS'ed 2.3 turbo or a Aussie X-flow-headed 200 I-6 turbo.

[FuturaGuy]

Thanks to a lot of good ideas and suggestions from Paul and Scott, I solved the fuel tank/fuel pump problem on my Futura Cobra (’79 Futura coupe with a 4.6L four-cammer). I got the Quanta Products F-2C tank for an ’84-’86 LTD wagon, and the Airtex E2146S pump and sender. I changed out the low-pressure CFI pump with a Camaro pump, Airtex P/N E3210. The Camaro pump has its inlet and outlet ports inline and offset from the centerline, just like the CFI pump, and is about an inch longer. The outlet port on the Chevy pump has a stepped diameter and the smaller diameter pilots into the inside diameter of the hanger outlet pipe. The larger diameter on the outlet is smaller by about .040” than the O.D. of the hanger pipe but the rubber hose fits tight on both. The only thing I had to do was cut the outlet pipe shorter by about a ¼ inch and cut the hose shorter. Even the nylon sock filter fits on the Chevy pump inlet.

My only concern is that the pump and motor assembly is only about 20% efficient and draws a lot of amperage, over 7 amps continuous. The pump, putting out 59 gallons per hour at 40 psi, is overkill for this application but there doesn’t seem to be a smaller pump that will fit.

The reason I haven’t installed the tank and tested the whole setup yet is I need to get a different resistor for the sending unit. I’m using an ’88 Mustang dashboard and instruments and the resistor now on the sender will drive the gas gage backward. If I were using the Fairmont dash, everything would work fine assuming they work at all. I never liked the bi-metal spring and instrument voltage regulator arrangement in the early Foxes and once had the gas, temperature, and oil pressure gages peg to the high side in bumper-to-bumper traffic on the New Jersey Turnpike. I don’t trust those gages anymore.

The only difference I see between the wagon and sedan hangers (see Scott’s pictures on a previous post) is that the sedan hanger pipe has a single bend and the pump sits at an angle to the sender flange. On the wagon hanger, the pipe has a double bend making a dogleg and the pump is almost perpendicular to the flange. The wagon tank has a baffle to keep fuel around the pump inlet and for that reason I don’t think a wagon hanger can be used with a sedan tank or vice-versa. Paul is right – any F/Z with the spare tire well in the trunk floor is going to need the ’84-’86 wagon tank if you’re going to have EFI.

[LTDScott]

I agree that these pumps are probably overkill, but hey, we have a return fuel system, so it's ok.

[Chuck W]

Here's a question that I thought about while I was under the Z-7 over the weekend doing the rear axle swap.

On my 80 the sump for the feed to the engine-mounted fuel pump is low on the tank at the front.

What would be the issue with just plumbing in a high-pressure in-line pump and filter without going through swapping the tank to an EFI one? (This is for when the car goes EFI). Have the EFI pump draw fuel from the tank would be no different than the machanical one.

[Chuck W]

Here's a question that I thought about while I was under the Z-7 over the weekend doing the rear axle swap.

On my 80 the sump for the feed to the engine-mounted fuel pump is low on the tank at the front.

What would be the issue with just plumbing in a high-pressure in-line pump and filter without going through swapping the tank to an EFI one? (This is for when the car goes EFI). Have the EFI pump draw fuel from the tank would be no different than the machanical one.

[zak]

I think the high pressure EFI pump needs to stay wet for cooling purposes, might be the reason for a different sump style on the EFI tanks

zak

[zak]

I think the high pressure EFI pump needs to stay wet for cooling purposes, might be the reason for a different sump style on the EFI tanks

zak

[Chuck W]

Then why do they use high-pressure pumps inline all the time? ;) The inline high-pressure pump was used all the time on the EFI Fords. The intank pump was just used to feed the hi-pressure one so it didn't have to fight gravity to pull gas from the tank. With the sump low on the tank.....it shouldn't need a "lift-pump".

I am aware I would need a return line, but that's not a big deal.

Did some of the mechanical pumps run a return line? The reason I ask is that there is a capped-off line in the engine compartment and I think there were two lines coming out of the sump. The motor in the car now is from an '83, so i'm not sure if the differences between that and the original '80 mill.

[Chuck W]

Then why do they use high-pressure pumps inline all the time? ;) The inline high-pressure pump was used all the time on the EFI Fords. The intank pump was just used to feed the hi-pressure one so it didn't have to fight gravity to pull gas from the tank. With the sump low on the tank.....it shouldn't need a "lift-pump".

I am aware I would need a return line, but that's not a big deal.

Did some of the mechanical pumps run a return line? The reason I ask is that there is a capped-off line in the engine compartment and I think there were two lines coming out of the sump. The motor in the car now is from an '83, so i'm not sure if the differences between that and the original '80 mill.

[FuturaGuy]

I'm not sure that the pump has to be kept wet for cooling purposes (like some aircraft fuel pumps) but it's not designed to run dry. A gravity feed to an external high pressure pump will be OK 99.99% of the time - it's the other .01% where you have the problem. The earlier tanks for non-fuel injected cars don't have baffles around the fuel inlet and if you make a tight turn when you're low on gas the inlet may start sucking wind momentarily. With a diaphragm fuel pump and a carburetor, that's not a problem. But if you suck air with an injector pump, you have the pump sitting in an air bubble and gerotor pumps won't pump air. At the same time it's not pushing gas to the engine, so it starts misfiring almost instantly.

The '84-'86 wagon tank in my Futura Cobra has baffles on all 4 sides around the pump. Everything fits nicely with the wagon sender and the Camaro pump. One of these days I'll post all the pictures.

Chuck - Next time I'm in Indianapolis, I've GOT to see your Z-7.

[FuturaGuy]

I'm not sure that the pump has to be kept wet for cooling purposes (like some aircraft fuel pumps) but it's not designed to run dry. A gravity feed to an external high pressure pump will be OK 99.99% of the time - it's the other .01% where you have the problem. The earlier tanks for non-fuel injected cars don't have baffles around the fuel inlet and if you make a tight turn when you're low on gas the inlet may start sucking wind momentarily. With a diaphragm fuel pump and a carburetor, that's not a problem. But if you suck air with an injector pump, you have the pump sitting in an air bubble and gerotor pumps won't pump air. At the same time it's not pushing gas to the engine, so it starts misfiring almost instantly.

The '84-'86 wagon tank in my Futura Cobra has baffles on all 4 sides around the pump. Everything fits nicely with the wagon sender and the Camaro pump. One of these days I'll post all the pictures.

Chuck - Next time I'm in Indianapolis, I've GOT to see your Z-7.

[lightning95sc]

Chuck, you can use an external high pressure pump. Thats how I used to do my efi conversions "in the old days" :) . Just make sure your sump is the absolute lowest point of the tank.

FuturaGuy, Will the same tank work in my Granada wagon? I'm doing the same swap you are.

Chuck

[lightning95sc]

Chuck, you can use an external high pressure pump. Thats how I used to do my efi conversions "in the old days" :) . Just make sure your sump is the absolute lowest point of the tank.

FuturaGuy, Will the same tank work in my Granada wagon? I'm doing the same swap you are.

Chuck

[LTDScott]

The '84-'86 wagon tank in my Futura Cobra has baffles on all 4 sides around the pump. Everything fits nicely with the wagon sender and the Camaro pump. One of these days I'll post all the pictures.

Chuck - Next time I'm in Indianapolis, I've GOT to see your Z-7.

Did you use the Walbro Camaro pump I posted about?

[LTDScott]

The '84-'86 wagon tank in my Futura Cobra has baffles on all 4 sides around the pump. Everything fits nicely with the wagon sender and the Camaro pump. One of these days I'll post all the pictures.

Chuck - Next time I'm in Indianapolis, I've GOT to see your Z-7.

Did you use the Walbro Camaro pump I posted about?

[Chuck W]

Well I just figured out something, my car was originally a 2.3, which used a return line on the fuel system, the others did not. So that's why there is a capped return line in the engine bay.

Next time I'm under there (when I get the d/s reinstalled) I'll take a closer look at where the sump is.

Something else I remember from my Ranger which was EFI. It had the dual pump system, but before the hi-pressure inline pump there was a reservoir, which possibly was for a filter, but every time I tried to buy one for that location, nothing fit..so I just left it open...and it was kind of a small reservoir just before the pump, which I imagine would help maintain a good supply of fuel to the pump. None of my other dual pumped Fords had this, so I'm not certain.

I wonder if adding something like that in a sumped system like what I'm thinking about might help keep the pump supplied with fuel?

[Chuck W]

Well I just figured out something, my car was originally a 2.3, which used a return line on the fuel system, the others did not. So that's why there is a capped return line in the engine bay.

Next time I'm under there (when I get the d/s reinstalled) I'll take a closer look at where the sump is.

Something else I remember from my Ranger which was EFI. It had the dual pump system, but before the hi-pressure inline pump there was a reservoir, which possibly was for a filter, but every time I tried to buy one for that location, nothing fit..so I just left it open...and it was kind of a small reservoir just before the pump, which I imagine would help maintain a good supply of fuel to the pump. None of my other dual pumped Fords had this, so I'm not certain.

I wonder if adding something like that in a sumped system like what I'm thinking about might help keep the pump supplied with fuel?

[FuturaGuy]

Scott - I used an Airtex P/N E3210 pump, which is the equivalent of the Walbro pump you used. I may have mentioned it in the post I put on this thread a couple of months ago. I tried to get the Walbro pump thru Automotive Performance Engineering in Texas, and after I e-mailed to ask for the price and tell him I was ready to order, I never heard from him again. Maybe it was something I said.

Lightening95SC - I don't know from first hand experience whether the '84-'86 LTD/Marquis wagon tank I used would fit your Granada. I think it will but don't take that to the bank. If the floor pan is the same on all Fox wagons the tank should fit but maybe someone with more experience can tell you for sure.

[FuturaGuy]

Scott - I used an Airtex P/N E3210 pump, which is the equivalent of the Walbro pump you used. I may have mentioned it in the post I put on this thread a couple of months ago. I tried to get the Walbro pump thru Automotive Performance Engineering in Texas, and after I e-mailed to ask for the price and tell him I was ready to order, I never heard from him again. Maybe it was something I said.

Lightening95SC - I don't know from first hand experience whether the '84-'86 LTD/Marquis wagon tank I used would fit your Granada. I think it will but don't take that to the bank. If the floor pan is the same on all Fox wagons the tank should fit but maybe someone with more experience can tell you for sure.

[LTDScott]

Scott - I used an Airtex P/N E3210 pump, which is the equivalent of the Walbro pump you used. I may have mentioned it in the post I put on this thread a couple of months ago. I tried to get the Walbro pump thru Automotive Performance Engineering in Texas, and after I e-mailed to ask for the price and tell him I was ready to order, I never heard from him again. Maybe it was something I said.


Ah, good to hear. I was really hoping someone would take advantage of the info I gave since it took me a while to find it!

[LTDScott]

Scott - I used an Airtex P/N E3210 pump, which is the equivalent of the Walbro pump you used. I may have mentioned it in the post I put on this thread a couple of months ago. I tried to get the Walbro pump thru Automotive Performance Engineering in Texas, and after I e-mailed to ask for the price and tell him I was ready to order, I never heard from him again. Maybe it was something I said.


Ah, good to hear. I was really hoping someone would take advantage of the info I gave since it took me a while to find it!

[Dean_T]

I thought this was asked before I did - I can't search worth a cr@p and found this post looking for another subject - sigh.

Anyway, I found the answer and here's the link:

'83-5/'85 and 5/'85-'86 fuel tank difference (vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread.php?t=50870)

Sorry to bring this back but I thought it's better to link the two just in case some one else does a search...

Dean T