Fake car's.. Are they the real thing or a clone.

[Evil86lx]

Their is a discussion on another board about cloning Saleen's. I think clone's are cool but calling them the REAL thing is pretty lame.

What do you guy's think? Is a 88 4cyl lx hatch that has been converted to a V8 with a full Saleen body kit a Saleen mustang.

What about a 88 GT that has a 93 cobra body kit on it, is it a REAL cobra mustang.

kyle

[frankiesaysrelax]

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!

Saleen REPLICA or Cobra REPLICA is what they are.

I laugh in the face of anyone that thinks otherwise. :evil:

[StangBoy]

nope, they were not made by the original manufacturers.

if i hand made a fox body mustang from scratch, i can call it an 86 GT but canot register it as one. my dad and i have built several custom cars and have had this debate with the dmv for ever.

[frankiesaysrelax]

oh wait, I forgot to use the proper Emoticons.

:bs: :knob: :tool:

[pextor]

you can build a factory five replica, but it will never be a true shelby cobra.

[slickshift]

Hey if you want to take a '67 Fastback and restore it like a GT 350 than fine
More power to ya, might do it myself one day
Hell of a lot cheaper than the $75K a real one would cost
....a real one <-notice term
Clones are a great way to get what we want, what is too expensive, what doesn't exist anymore
But anyone who ever represents the clone as an original should be hanged by the neck until they are dead...dead...dead

[Evil86lx]

I pretty much feel the same way.

Clone's are super cool but it's still a clone and calling it the real thing is just plane silly.


kyle

[GT350R]

But anyone who ever represents the clone as an original should be hanged by the neck until they are dead...dead...dead

And could be commiting fraud.

If you build a clone and sell it. Then down the road someone sells it as the real thing, you are liable for building it. Happened more then once with Shelby's.

[GT350R]

A whole new , but same topic are rebodies.

Still a clone in my book.

[frankiesaysrelax]

I have vin and body tags from a wasted '65 Malibu SS. I won the rights to strip the hulk on eBay for $75, LOL. The guy that sold it to me told me one of his buddies was interested in purchasing the tags to convert his SS clone into a "real" SS so he could sell it for more money. I took the guy's number and I took the tags, but I threw the guy's number out the window on the way home. SCUMBAG!!!!! Good thing the guy who sold me the car said something to me, or I would have simply left them on the vehicle and that loser would have forged an SS. :evil:

Incidentally, I sold the steering column for $75 to a local guy and then unloaded the gauge cluster, glass and various trim parts on eBay for a tidy sum. ;)

[slickshift]

But anyone who ever represents the clone as an original should be hanged by the neck until they are dead...dead...dead

And could be commiting fraud.

If you build a clone and sell it. Then down the road someone sells it as the real thing, you are liable for building it. Happened more then once with Shelby's.
They sell clone insurance
If you buy a car you find out later that it's a clone, they pay the difference

And could be commiting fraud.
You can get sued if the proper entities care to get involved
It happened to a local guy
Normally, manufacturers don't care about second hand stuff
But this guy must have pissed of somebody
They sued him for something to do with trademarks
He went bankrupt and changed his name
They guy who did most of the actual work had an accident
He was being dangled by his feet out the window 3 stories up when he accidently slipped and fell to his death

[5 Liter Mustang]

Hey if you want to take a '67 Fastback and restore it like a GT 350 than fine
More power to ya, might do it myself one day
Hell of a lot cheaper than the $75K a real one would cost


thats fine and i respect your goals but I dont understand the fun in owning a clone. Im sure its an extremely great feeling to own an original shelby mustang, and I dont think owning a clone of the same car will ever come close. Especially since most clones running around are half-assed to say the least.

[twister]

the ONLY clone that I would want is a exact copy of the Hirohata Merc

http://www.ktsmotorsportsgarage.com/rodeo98/images/fullsize/mercury51-hiro.jpg

As for a replica, I plan to build a Cobra replica with some updates

[GT350R]

thats fine and i respect your goals but I dont understand the fun in owning a clone. Im sure its an extremely great feeling to own an original shelby mustang, and I dont think owning a clone of the same car will ever come close.

On one hand is ghey.

On the other, there are cars that cannot be had for any money. And IF you could get them anyway, would you drive them? Say you owned the Essex wire 65 GT350R.(say Rick Kopec died) Could you drive it? I couldnt. Hell, I would be afraid to dit in it!

But it would be cool to have a clone and beat the tar out of it like it was back in the day!

[twister]

On one hand is ghey.

On the other, there are cars that cannot be had for any money. And IF you could get them anyway, would you drive them? Say you owned the Essex wire 65 GT350R.(say Rick Kopec died) Could you drive it? I couldnt. Hell, I would be afraid to dit in it!

But it would be cool to have a clone and beat the tar out of it like it was back in the day!pass the keys...lets see how it slides through the corkscrew!

[FoxChassis]

I have no problems with clones/replicas. But call it what it is. And don't go butchering other cars that are complete to build the clones either, e.g. robbing running, driveable Mustangs of their powertrains for Cobra replicas.

[Evil86lx]

Exactly. Their is NOTHING wrong with a clone. But dont call it the real thing.

kyle

[5 Liter Mustang]

On one hand is ghey.

On the other, there are cars that cannot be had for any money. And IF you could get them anyway, would you drive them? Say you owned the Essex wire 65 GT350R.(say Rick Kopec died) Could you drive it? I couldnt. Hell, I would be afraid to dit in it!

But it would be cool to have a clone and beat the tar out of it like it was back in the day!

if the clone was fairly correct, then yes that would be fun.

maybe i hate clones because when the word "clone" comes to mind, I think of half-assed saleens and cobra's, or stock white 66 mustangs with shelby stripes....

[twister]

Exactly. Their is NOTHING wrong with a clone. But dont call it the real thing.

kylekinda...for instance, I have always wanted a 1966 Mustang coupe built to 1966 FIA Group 2 rules (same as SCCA Trans Am). Building a clone is trying to build something that you want, but can not afford, let you will spend as much or more than buying one, unless it is a real Cobra or GT40

[GT350R]

[quote="5 Liter Mustang"]

maybe i hate clones because when the word "clone" comes to mind,..........quote]

Thats weird, when i think of clone, Devo comes to mind. Weird huh?

[GT350R]

Exactly. Their is NOTHING wrong with a clone. But dont call it the real thing.

kylekinda...for instance, I have always wanted a 1966 Mustang coupe built to 1966 FIA Group 2 rules (same as SCCA Trans Am). Building a clone is trying to build something that you want, but can not afford, let you will spend as much or more than buying one, unless it is a real Cobra or GT40

A beter example is a clone of a car where only one existed, or none were ever made.

I dream of building two cars.

A 69 Boss 302 convertible.

A team Terlinga 67 Coupe. (with a flare of 2000 performance and handling)

[Ken P]

I own a 93 Cobra clone. I built it from a white 90 LX and used the Cervini kit then had it repainted back white and molded everything in / smoothed out. It also has complete 86 SVO front suspension, a 94 GT 355 5 lug disc rear, SVO wheels, SVO Koni's, Eibachs ( lowered! ), 2000 GT black leather front buckets, rear seat delete, 6 point bar / subframes / strut tower etc, and is in process of getting the FRPP 345hp crate engine. From a distance it looks like a Cobra but since they never made them in white and I've never claimed it to be one I'm OK. I'm also building a 66 Shelby clone which has been on jackstands for almost 10 years. I keep changing my mind on what it will finally look like... As far as re-body's goes as long as the donor car's body was truly un-fixable and you build it back EXACTLY as it was with the same VIN I don't see that as a clone.

[FoxChassis]

As far as re-body's goes as long as the donor car's body was truly un-fixable and you build it back EXACTLY as it was with the same VIN I don't see that as a clone.
So that means you would switch VINs?

[GT350R]

As far as re-body's goes as long as the donor car's body was truly un-fixable and you build it back EXACTLY as it was with the same VIN I don't see that as a clone.
So that means you would switch VINs?

Even more confusing. What if all if different but some of the cowl is retained in order to keep the VIN.

[negusm]

Even more confusing. What if all if different but some of the cowl is retained in order to keep the VIN.

I resemble that remark! I feel I saved a car. Maybe pointless to some and maybe an asc only in spirit now.

-Mike

[Ricky C]

People who put the put the Saleen serial number on the bumper of a fake Saleen really bug me. If it isn't a real Saleen then it shouldn't have that number on it!

[frankiesaysrelax]

Even more confusing. What if all if different but some of the cowl is retained in order to keep the VIN.

I resemble that remark! I feel I saved a car. Maybe pointless to some and maybe an asc only in spirit now.

-Mike

I think if a car gets really badly hammered and you are so insistent on fixing it that you cut away most of the body and replace it with metal from another car, you are still saving an original. Rebodying and swapping the tags is counterfeiting.

[FoxChassis]

Rebodying and swapping the tags is counterfeiting.
Damn skippy.

[frankiesaysrelax]

Rebodying and swapping the tags is counterfeiting.
Damn skippy.

All a rebodied car is to me is just another clone. It's no original. I'd rather have a clone.

[Travis T]

I dream of building two cars.

A 69 Boss 302 convertible.

A team Terlinga 67 Coupe. (with a flare of 2000 performance and handling)

I'm getting ready to help a buddy of mine build the latter of those. He has a Springtime yellow 67 coupe he picked up off of the showroom floor and used as an autocross car for years. Funny thing is, he blacked out the hood in 1967 the same way as the Terlingua cars, but that was before he had even seen one.

[cmccarthy]

To add a twist to this... what about the Unique Autosports GT-500E cars? Are they real or fake? I say they are fake, regardless of whether or not Carroll signs off on them. They weren't built by CSA in 1968, so they are fake.

[Evil86lx]

To add a twist to this... what about the Unique Autosports GT-500E cars? Are they real or fake? I say they are fake, regardless of whether or not Carroll signs off on them. They weren't built by CSA in 1968, so they are fake.

It's like in the movie's. A "remake" of a classic. Sometime's they are better, and sometime's they suck.

kyle

[capri650]

If you have the money to buy a real one DRIVE IT thats what they were made for. GT350r Two fine choices As far as Shelby's are concerned He still has vin's for cobra's and Gt350's and GT 500's some of each year several years ago he was buying up good old mustangs and rebiulding them and retaging with Shelby VIN's would you consider them to be clones or the real macoy. Call A SPaDE a Spade. went through all this with old mustangs and Mopars in the show circuit people passing off clones as real. Some of these people spend more money building the clone then to go and Buy one . tyhis one issue has caused such a mess that when your at a show you have judges who think tha t know what a real one looks like and really have know clue. Best friend has a 67 GT350 early production car that was stolen the wonderful state of Pa decided that they needed to retitle it thus issuses the problem SAC tells him it's not a real Shelby even though has original title and paperwork and state paperwork verifing Vin change. Dash on car was signed by Carrol Shelby himself before it was stolen have pics and all MR Kopec (Mister SAAC) himself even said not a real Shelby good thing hes all knowing of the Shelby legacy. This is a hot Issue for me as have spent lot of time fighting whatis real and what is clone have had many Mach 1's and GTX's and SuperBee's that have fought over this about.
Thats my rant I'm done :P :P

[GT350R]

This is a hot Issue for me as have spent lot of time fighting whatis real and what is clone have had many Mach 1's and GTX's and SuperBee's that have fought over this about.
Thats my rant I'm done :P :P

I wonder if MAP will jump in an tell his friends story on the Cobra vs. an SCCA freinds Cobra.


Frankie, I have to admit , that was a loaded statement.

You said fixing at any cost is fine, but vin swapping is wrong. The dilema comes down to this. Who determines how much metal constitues which is being done. half the body? Half the cowl? 30 inches of cowl? 10 inches of cowl?

Gets blurry the less metal there is , but no real set marker.

[GT350R]

I found the NUMBER ONE best reason for clones.

So this would not be as bad as it actually is.

http://www.pbase.com/atrltd/bric2005

[MurPHy]

I found the NUMBER ONE best reason for clones.

So this would not be as bad as it actually is.

http://www.pbase.com/atrltd/bric2005

I'd still rather have the original myself. Talk about inducing some white-knuckle driving there, eh? :lol:

[frankiesaysrelax]

Frankie, I have to admit , that was a loaded statement.

You said fixing at any cost is fine, but vin swapping is wrong. The dilema comes down to this. Who determines how much metal constitues which is being done. half the body? Half the cowl? 30 inches of cowl? 10 inches of cowl?

Gets blurry the less metal there is , but no real set marker.

I think the qualifier is that you have to save as much of the original car as humanly possible. My old boss's friend and his son restored a 'Cuda that was so badly rotted that the A-pillars were no longer attached to the cowl. All the rust was cut out and replaced with new metal, hand fabricated by a master restoration specialist (my boss's friend). We are talking full-on concourse resto here, rotissarie and all, countless hours and dollars spent to make the car absolutely 100% perfect and concourse correct.

That constitutes an original car in my book.

Swapping VINs is not only wrong, it is against Federal Law and ranks up there with possessing an unregistered machine gun or destructive device. I believe it is punishable by like 10 years in a Federal prison and a $100,000 fine. Still a slap on the wrist in my opinion. :evil:

Being chained to a boulder and having an eagle stop in and eat your liver for breakfast every morning for the rest of eternity would be more like it. ;)

.....either that or having to give oral to Rosie 8O

[Ken P]

I'm back, I have a 103,000 mile 85.5 2R SVO that has won several MCA National first place gold concours as well as regional MCA and SVOCA first place awards. I'm also the original owner having both build sheets, the original purchase order to Dearborn, all stickers, dealer key fobs, steering wheel & shifter plastic wraps, etc etc etc. If a huge pine tree fell in a storm and squashed it flat your D**N straight I'd rebody and swap VINs. There are many, many people who'd give up but I'm NOT one of them. I would of course document with photos and apply for a salvage title which is ALLOWED in Georgia. I would also find a straight rust free SVO shell for the rebody which isn't that difficult nowadays. There are plenty of MORONS on E-bay parting out running SVO's. I would basically be saving TWO SVO's in the process. I have bought and LOST BIG $$$ on a few Mustangs just to save them for somebody else to restore. "Oh look! there's a scratch in the fender! Gosh that's too much work! I know, I'll part it out for profit! ( insert any kind of collector car / Mustang here )" Then it's "I used to own one of those. I wonder why you don't see them around anymore?" Swapping VINs is PEANUTS if it keeps one more on the road!

[FoxChassis]

If a huge pine tree fell in a storm and squashed it flat your D**N straight I'd rebody and swap VINs....I would of course document with photos and apply for a salvage title which is ALLOWED in Georgia.

So taking VINs (there are five total on '79-'86 Mustangs and Capris) from one chassis and putting them on another is legal in GA, so long as after that's done the title says "salvage" on it?

[Ken P]

Yes at least the last time I did a "rebody". In my GM days before being converted to Fords I saved a 72 442 that had been rear-ended / punched up the the doors. It was a 38000 mile pristine car. While there wasn't the supply of 442 shells like the SVO's I used a Cutlass S body. It retained the entire front clip, engine & trans, suspension, grill, bumper, 95% of the interior, only the drivers door as the passengers was badly compressed. I also had to replace the rearend and all the related suspension. I sold it for what I originally paid for it taking a loss of about $8000 which doesn't include my personal labor hours. When I sold it the buyer took it to his mechanic who gave him the OK and he bought it. My brother is also currently in the process of building a 69 T-top Vette which is being constructed from a theft recovery / totalled out using original parts and repo stuff. He has applied and received a salvage title for it just last year. One of my other projects is a 65 A code fastback which is a "true" GT from the factory that was wrecked back in 1981 with only 57,000 miles. I have tried to find another fastback body but that has become impossible. It needs to be saved and is worthy IMHO.

[Ken P]

Also VINs are maintained by state agencies and the insurance companies. It is not a federal law. Unless of course you go and steal another car from out of state and take it back for the sole purpose of disguising it's true ownership for sale and profit... That's called auto theft and interstate transportation of stolen goods.

[Ken P]

Check here www.dmvs.state.ga.us/motor/titles/needed/rebuilt.asp

[FoxChassis]

Here is the U.S. Code regarding removing, obliterating, tampering with, or altering motor vehicle identification numbers:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+18USC511

TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

PART I--CRIMES

CHAPTER 25--COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY

Sec. 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers

a) A person who--
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part

shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in
paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the
vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection
are--
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law;

I could find nothing in the above U.S. Code that permits removal of VIN(s) from vehicle A and placing it(them) on vehicle B because vehicle A is not repairable.

I would like to see the GA State Code that permits such an act. The link you provided above says nothing about switching VINs.

[frankiesaysrelax]

Also VINs are maintained by state agencies and the insurance companies. It is not a federal law.

100% dead wrong!

The pertinant federal legislation is US Code Title 18, subsection 511. I was mistaken though, violations are only punishable by up to five years in Federal Prison. However there are exceptions relating to the legitimate repair of a vehicle pursuant to applicable state law. However, like most legal issues, the wicket can get even stickier. Suppose someone "rebodied" a valuable collector car with the body of a mundane varient, for example, creating a HemiCuda convertible out of what was originally a 318 Barracuda convertible. Then they passed it off as the real thing and sold it. Should a subsequent purchaser discover the truth, you can rest assured that they, and their attorneys, would consider the "rebody" to constitute Fraud and Grand Larceny. While the vehicle in question would not technically be considered stolen, if it could be proven that the intent of the VIN alteration was to defraud someone it could very well be construed as theft and therefore conceivably punishable under the act.


§ 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers

(a) A person who—
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act,
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(b)
(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are—
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by—
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.
(c) As used in this section, the term—
(1) “identification number” means a number or symbol that is inscribed or affixed for purposes of identification under chapter 301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49;
(2) “motor vehicle” has the meaning given that term in section 32101 of title 49;
(3) “motor vehicle demolisher” means a person, including any motor vehicle dismantler or motor vehicle recycler, who is engaged in the business of reducing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts to metallic scrap that is unsuitable for use as either a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part;
(4) “motor vehicle scrap processor” means a person—
(A) who is engaged in the business of purchasing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts for reduction to metallic scrap for recycling;
(B) who, from a fixed location, uses machinery to process metallic scrap into prepared grades; and
(C) whose principal product is metallic scrap for recycling;
but such term does not include any activity of any such person relating to the recycling of a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part as a used motor vehicle or a used motor vehicle part.
(d) For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, the term “tampers with” includes covering a program decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act for the purpose of obstructing its visibility.


Damn You FOX!!!! LOL :D You posted that while I was doing research and carefully composing my response.

[Ken P]

What I posted does show the process with establishing the "salvage title" VIN that is used / defaulted. It's down aways and starts with "Bills of sale for parts used to rebuild / restore..." I think what you're missing here is as long as the restoration shop is licensed ( see my link again ) to do the repair or rebuild and that is it's sole business, not a recycler or dismantler, is as a repair shop it is not illegal at least in Georgia. I know of more than a few restoration shops that do this everyday. Pick up a copy of The Mustang Times ( MCA's monthly magazine ) and check in the back for restoration shops. Give them a call and see how they do it and not get busted...

[Ken P]

I also find it kinda funny when comparing the two responses how sections were left out. Surely this wasn't intentional in an effort to prove a point. Clearly "(2) with intent to further theft of a motor vehicle" comes from the prosecution of someone who has already been arrested and is being held for car theft. These statuets ( sp )pertain to the "prosecution of" a person(s) who through Police detective work have determined to be in the business of car theft and the use of their parts for profit. These vehicles I have spoken of were processed legally. If they weren't I'd be in jail don't you think? Or maybe they should just put a cop with handcuffs outside the door to arrest people as they walk out with their new salvage title(s)?

[frankiesaysrelax]

I also find it kinda funny when comparing the two responses how sections were left out. Surely this wasn't intentional in an effort to prove a point. Clearly "(2) with intent to further theft of a motor vehicle" comes from the prosecution of someone who has already been arrested and is being held for car theft. These statuets ( sp )pertain to the "prosecution of" a person(s) who through Police detective work have determined to be in the business of car theft and the use of their parts for profit. These vehicles I have spoken of were processed legally. If they weren't I'd be in jail don't you think? Or maybe they should just put a cop with handcuffs outside the door to arrest people as they walk out with their new salvage title(s)?

Ken, the info I posted is copied and pasted directly from this link. Nothing was omitted to prove a point.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000511----000-.html

The whole argument centers around Subsection 511 (b)(2)(B) which states an exemption for: (italics added)

(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;

In the ordinary course of business it may be necessary to replace a VIN tag in order to repair a vehicle. The law recognizes that fact. However, rebodying a car and popping the tags from another vehicle onto it does not qualify as "reasonably necessary for the repair" as such a vehicle was obviously damaged beyond repair. The proper VIN for such a vehicle would be the one that belongs to the body, not the one from a destroyed but more desireable and valuable model.

[FoxChassis]

I posted only the part of that code that was relevant to this topic.

I still want to see the Georgia General Statute that says swapping VINs is lawful.

[Ken P]

This is my last post on this subject. Here is the process : A vehicle that is owned by a private individual and is fully insured is damaged beyond repair by accident or other event. Owner calls his insurance company and notifies them of incident. Insurance company sends adjuster to assess damage to vehicle. Adjuster determines that vehicle is "totalled out". The owner has 2 options, either accept the check from the insurance company whereby the ins. co. then sells the remains to a recycler and is either dismantled for parts ( www.mustangpartsspecialties.com for example ) or is sent to a scrap yard to be shredded and melted down. This is the point where the ins. co. and the recycler notifies the DOT / DMV that the VIN is no longer valid. This is why companies such as Mustang Parts Specialties can not and will not sell their damaged cars. They will occasionally sell a "fixer" but that is before notification to the DMV and sell it "as is". OR the owner can retain the vehicle and accept a check for an agreed to usually lesser dollar amount. The owner can then either part the car out and then sell those parts as a private individual. The owner is then "supposed to" notify the DMV that the VIN is no longer valid but this is not something that they, the DMV, follow up. Or the owner who still retains the original title WITH THE ORIGINAL VIN, also providing the title is clear and no lending institutions hold any liens against the vehicle, takes it to a LICENSED repair / restore shop to fix the vehicle. Through negotiations with that repair shop the owner is allowed to strip the damaged vehicle and the donor car down so long as no structual work is performed by the owner. Also taking the necessary photos in the process. The shells are then supplied to the repair shop and the work is performed. As stated in my link the repair shop must have a certified inspector review the work PRIOR to paint and THEN the VIN can be swapped to what will be the finished vehicle, thereby defaulting to the original title, as being witnessed by the inspector. Once the vehicle is approved then the owner submits all the necessary documents to the DMV in an application for a salvage title. The car can then be re-assembled and properly licensed. Also if it is still required to pass emmisions it must be tested and approved by a licensed emmissions facilty. I was considering posting links to the restorations shops here in Georgia that I know perform this process ( who are friends of mine ) but decided not to drag them into this futile discussion on something that occurs everyday. I can only suggest that if you cannot understand this as I have described then maybe you should go get a chain saw and crush one of your "collector" cars and go through the process for yourself... I no longer care and OFFICIALLY give up!

[Evil86lx]

huh..

Ken I dont understand why you leave this thread. I dont see any fighting or name calling all I see are a few people trying to understand how one could switch vin's like that.

If this is a legal alternative and could help someone save a rare car I would think that you would continue to help every one understand the process because it would be benifical to the FEP comunity.

kyle

[FoxChassis]

VINs belong to their original chassis. Swapping VINs to another chassis is ILLEGAL.

From the link you posted:

.
.
.
To apply for a rebuilt title and an inspection, submit the following...
.
.
.
Bills of sale for all parts used to restore/rebuild the vehicle showing the vehicle owner or the re-builder as the purchaser. The re-builder's name, as shown on the parts' bills of sale, must be shown on the Labor and Parts Certification, Form T-129. For all new parts used in restoring the vehicle, the part's name and stock number must be shown on the bill of sale. All bills of sale for used parts must show the part's name and the VIN (vehicle's identification number) of the vehicle from which the part was taken. The title for the part's vehicle must be on file with this Department or submitted at the time of application. Click here to read §40-3-36 of the OCGA regarding dismantled vehicles. If the title for the vehicle the parts were taken from was surrendered to another state, a letter of certification must be obtained and submitted at the time of application.
.
.
.
If less than two- (2) major component parts were used to restore the vehicle, the title, when issued, will be branded as "Salvaged-Restored".

If two- (2) or more major component parts were used to restore the vehicle, the title, when issued, will be branded as "Rebuilt".
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.
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***A major component part is any one of the following sub-assemblies of a motor vehicle: (A) Front clip assembly (Fenders, hood and bumper); (B) Rear clip assembly (Quarter panels, floor panel assembly and the roof assembly, excluding soft tops); (C) Engine and transmission; (D) Frame; (E) Complete side (Fender, door, and quarter).

Notice the phrase "restore/rebuild the vehicle" and "restore the vehicle". That means if a huge pine tree fell in a storm and squashed your 85.5 2R SVO flat, and the title was branded as "salvage", you could restore or rebuild THAT vehicle using parts from others. You cannot legally take the VIN from your SVO, put it on another vehicle (another SVO perhaps? or an L, LX, GT, etc.), and say, or get a legal "salvage-restored" or "rebuilt" title that says, the recipient of your SVO's VIN is now indeed your original SVO.

Again, I see nothing on the page you posted, or any linked-to page(s), that says taking a vehicle's VIN and putting it on another vehicle is OK to do. Please show me the GA State Code that says it is, or an MVD page that says it is, or an E-mail address to an authority on the subject (meaning an MVD employee, not your buddies whom do VIN swapping) that can say it is.

People do things all the time and "get away with it". Still doesn't make it legal. As the old phrase goes...."it's not illegal unless you get caught", right?

[cmccarthy]

Vin swapping was running rampant the last couple of years as people were buying 2002-2004 Mustang "bodies in whiite" and paint reject bodies (both of which have no vin) and making street cars out of them.

[black86capri50]

here in florida, a salvage title can be obtained for any vehicle "totalled" and repurchased from the "insurance company" the then repaired vehicle is then inspected by a state inspector, and if safe (no emissions testing) will be given a title with the words SALVAGE TITLE emblazoned on it, how much of the original car is used is up for discussion, after the hurricanes here last year, and all the falling houses and trees, even the dealers are getting into the car clipping business.....

if a new car dealer can get a salvage front clip, salvage rear clip, and only keep the dash and cowl panel of the original car, and sell it on their lot as a new (hurricane damaged) car, then how much of the original car really has to be retained, and don't yell scam, i am a MAC tool dealer and go to 50 new car dealers a week, and they do it perfectly legal, without rebuilt titles

matter of fact, these cars are sold as new previously damaged vehicles with window stickers just discounted because of repaired damage

it just has to be disclosed that the car was damaged

no insurance involved.......... no salvage title

[FoxChassis]

I still want to see the Georgia General Statute that says swapping VINs is lawful.

So far I've found nothing that says it is lawful. But I did find something that said it is UNlawful....

http://www.legis.state.ga.us/cgi-bin/gl_codes_detail.pl?code=40-4-22

40-4-22.
(a) It shall be unlawful to buy, sell, receive, dispose of, conceal, use, or possess any motor vehicle, or any part thereof, from which the manufacturer´s serial numbers or other distinguishing numbers or identifying marks have been removed, defaced, covered, altered, or destroyed for the purpose of concealing or misrepresenting the identity of such motor vehicle.
(b) Any person who knowingly violates any provisions of subsection (a) of this Code section is guilty of a felony and, upon conviction, shall be punished by confinement in the penitentiary for not less than one nor more than five years.

[Ken P]

I return to this thread only because I find it pathetic. It has been 15 days since the last post to this thread. I'm calling a violation of the Rules of Conduct. Specifically your section #4 No Flame Baiting. You're a moderator. Act like one. Or are you just bored and have nothing else to do?

[frankiesaysrelax]

I don't think "flame baiting" involves pointing out to someone that they may have unwittingly committed a felony.

Ken, I hope you don't feel like the subject of a witch hunt. No one is after you personally. Fox is just making a clarification of the facts. Don't take it personally. Everyone knows that you are a helpful and generally knowledgeable person as well as one of the most die-hard SVO guys around. We all respect the way you feel about your car, though we may differ strongly in our feelings about "rebodying".

I think everything that can be said has been said. Let's just let this thread die, along with any harsh feelings. ;)

[FoxChassis]

I didn't come back to this topic just to keep a dead issue going. In fact it wasn't dead. I never did find the specific GA statute regarding removing a VIN from a vehicle. And nobody else here came up with it either. Yesterday I found it. And I found it by way of browsing the BOSS 302 Registry after looking for information for somebody on another board (http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=685100). I saw the specific statute and that in turn triggered my memory of this topic, which needed to be settled. Because, as we can see, some people truly belive that it IS legal to swap VINs.

So now we have the facts. VIN swapping (in the state of GA or elsewhere) is illegal.

Now as far as "flame baiting" goes, I'm not the one that posted...

Or are you just bored and have nothing else to do?

Now that the illegality of swapping VINs has been stated, let this topic die.

[Ken P]

Well first let me formerly apologize for the "nothing better to do statement". I was wrong and shouldn't have said it. But... here I go again. I will check with my resto shop friends, and my cop friends, and find the appropriate statute as related to rebodying / restoring / VIN transfer / salvage titles or whatever you want to call it. I can assure you there is a legal process whereas a fully licensed shop can take 2 or more vehicles and construct one single vehicle for use by a private party for show, daily driver, resale or whatever that person intends to do with that vehicle after repair or restoration. I had been willing to leave well enough alone but am now on a mission. Call it a personal flaw but I won't be told I'm wrong when I know I'm right. I've seen this process performed on numerous occasions. I will seek permission from my friends who own these restoration shops, and providing they agree, provide links to their shop(s). I will also try to provide examples of these cars but that may be stretching it. I also want to add that these friends own MCA approved repair / restoration shops. The cars they have built are first place gold concours restorations. They're not some backyard hacks with a cutting torch and an orbital sander. More to follow...

[frankiesaysrelax]

Call it a personal flaw but I won't be told I'm wrong when I know I'm right.

Fox & I share that flaw, LOL.

I can assure you there is a legal process whereas a fully licensed shop can take 2 or more vehicles and construct one single vehicle

Yes, that is definitely true. You are 100% correct.

Nobody is saying that it is illegal to rebuild cars. Obviously that happens all the time and is perfectly legal.

The point of view Mick and I are taking is that if you "rebody" a car, the proper VIN is the one the body came with, not that of the original destroyed vehicle.

For example, lets say I have two cars, a wrecked destroyed rusted hulk of a '70 Hemicuda and a plain-jane 318 Barracuda. If I swap all the Hemi-specific parts over to the Barracuda and totally restore the car what I have is a clone worth, for the sake of argument $50,000. Now, pop the tags from the destroyed HemiCuda onto it and suddenly it is worth twice as much, however this is FRAUD and is quite illegal.

Something very similar to this scenario happened about 15 years ago. I recall reading about it in a Mopar mag. Some guy was showing his newly purchased HemiCuda and another fellow at the show recognized the car and told him it wasn't a real HemiCuda. The owner of course told him he was wrong but the fellow insisted that his friend used to own the car and it was originally a 383 4V. His friend had swapped all the Hemi specific parts onto it graphics and all, creating a HemiCuda clone. Well, the owner did some research, contacted the supposed previous owner and confirmed the story. What had happened was that the guy that had bought the car from the fellow that had created it had a set of tags from a real wrecked HemiCuda that was the same color etc. That guy switched the tags and turned around and sold the car to the current owner for a huge profit. I think the FBI got involved at this point or something. The dude that switched the tags got a major ass-reaming, that's for sure, and neither car was stolen or anything like that.

Now, somewhere in between outright fraud and legal reconstruction lies a quasi-legal gray area. We could argue about this till the cows come home and never come to any meaningful conclusion. Who can really say for sure how much of the original vehicle must remain to maintain its original identity? Didn't Boyd Coddington's shop just get raided by for some sort of shennaigans with VINs and titles? For that reason I think we should just drop the whole thing and all stay friends. :D



Oh, I found an article about Boyd's getting raided, evidently it had more to do with the State of California losing tax revenue because of cars being undervalued. Boyd got singled out due to his high profile.

http://www.streetrodderweb.com/hotnews/0410sr_boyds/

However, I found this part particularly interesting.

Street Rodder has learned via e-mail communications with Robert Morgester, the Deputy Attorney General Special Crimes Unit for the State of California Department of Justice, "The California Attorney General's Office has been conducting an investigation into the fraudulent registration of replica vehicles. The initial investigation was limited to Cobra replica vehicles due to known VIN sequences. We are aware that the same fraudulent vehicle registration issues apply to other replica vehicles and hot rods.

To correct a common misunderstanding of California law, it is a felony to do the following:
1. Register a vehicle where the year of vehicle is misrepresented;
2. Register a vehicle where the value of the vehicle is understated; or
3. Register a vehicle where the year of the vehicle is misrepresented to avoid compliance with California smog laws.

Any of the above actions are a felony in violation of Vehicle Code Section 4463(a). Additionally, the above actions constitute the crime of perjury, in that all statement of facts contained in California DMV documents are taken under penalty of perjury."