head advice!?!

[Lookn4theend]

now that my motor in ym cars going again im trying to finish my built motor, moms buying me heads for b-day. its a 331 with 10 to 1 comp. custom cam, civ jr intake,want 6200rpm and will be seeing nitrous, are vic jr heads to much?will be a race car that will see weekend driving a lil bit

[Old_Timer]

now that my motor in ym cars going again im trying to finish my built motor, moms buying me heads for b-day. its a 331 with 10 to 1 comp. custom cam, civ jr intake,want 6200rpm and will be seeing nitrous, are vic jr heads to much?will be a race car that will see weekend driving a lil bit


since you didn't posted your camshaft profile, gear ratio, vehicle weight and type of induction. I would highly recommended you to contact camshaft manufacture and let them twll you which cylinder head is suitable for your application.

[Lookn4theend]

will be carbed, car ways about 3000lbs,3.73s....im jsut trying to figure what heads to go with. all i got so far is a short block basicly..... with a intake.

[ultimatebulk]

Victor Jr heads are not too much at all. You've got some compression on your side, which is great. The Victor Jr heads are a great flowing head, but there are better (Victor Jr. is an older design). May I suggest you look into some AFR 185's or 205's with room to grow.l

TFS-R would also be a possibilty.

All depends if you are on a budget or not...

[Lookn4theend]

well i can get a set of vic jrs for 850 brand new in box..... :D thats why they are the main choice

[Lookn4theend]

also i was thinking of decking the block to 0 and get a lil more compression

[not-a-stang]

Geez, Russell, you're going all out on your GT! Those Honda boys won't know what hit them.

Are you really going to turn your GT into a real race car? Make it street/strip. Those are way more fun... ;)

[Lookn4theend]

it will be there on sundays......on slicks and probably on trailer.....and then to compton

[Zap's 85 GT]

well i can get a set of vic jrs for 850 brand new in box..... :D thats why they are the main choice

Bare or complete?

[ultimatebulk]

and then to compton

You gotta be kidding me... :roll: WEST SYYYYDE my homiezzzzz lol

At least get it on video for everyone to see!

[Lookn4theend]

complete :D but my valvetrain will be a tad bit diff then stock

[BRUNO]

My advice would be, figure out what powerband you need, and what compression ratio you want. Don't choose a certain head because it worked well on someone else's car!!!!! And most of all, flow isn't everything!!!!! Intake runner size can make or break you, and for best results buy the springs that are matched to your cam!!! Just because the springs they slap on a assembled head are good to a certain amount of lift doesn't mean they will work properly with your cam profile. I read posts all day long about buy AFR's buy Victor Jr's, but in reality there are a whole lot of cylinder heads on the market, and every set-up calls for something different.(While researching don't overlook iron heads either)

(In my opinion) Try looking into a set of Dart's (either the Iron Eagles or the Pro 1's)
Or if your budget would support a set of Brodix (which in my opinion are about the best)

[StangBoy]

get a set of e7's ported. theres a guy i know running low 11's with them on a 347. all motor.

[85saleencoupe]

get a set of e7's ported. theres a guy i know running low 11's with them on a 347. all motor.

lmfao omg do not do that. those victors will work nice.for that price its not even a decision,gl

ps e7's are junk and no matter what you do to them will be junk

[ultimatebulk]

ps e7's are junk and no matter what you do to them will be junk

That comment is one of cluelessness.

There are plenty of stock-motor E7 head combo's running mid to high 12's, and the valve covers have never been off. Furthermore, ported stock heads/ cam/ intake combo's have been running 11's.

To say that E7 heads are junk makes you sound uneducated, period.

I'd like to see you take that comment to a Factory Stock racer and see what he has to say about that ... :roll:

[85saleencoupe]

ps e7's are junk and no matter what you do to them will be junk

That comment is one of cluelessness.

There are plenty of stock-motor E7 head combo's running mid to high 12's, and the valve covers have never been off. Furthermore, ported stock heads/ cam/ intake combo's have been running 11's.

To say that E7 heads are junk makes you sound uneducated, period.

I'd like to see you take that comment to a Factory Stock racer and see what he has to say about that ... :roll:

lol this isnt a stock motor that he is building is he? if he wanted to run those numbers he could keep a stock motor then huh? he is building a motor up and e'7s are a crappy heads.only so much you can do with a stock pair of heads bro use your head

[85saleencoupe]

take his motor and put the most built e7's that you can find on there and put a set of stock afr or victor heads on and see the diff lol putting 1000$ in a set of e7's when you can spend that much on a set of bolt on heads is a no brainer considering all the more you can build the others while your stuck with the e7 that cannont produce anything else

[BetterDays]

Why do people want to spend a load of money on E7's?
The cost of Iron Heads is not much more than porting, polishing, new valve springs, valve grind, etc.....

The E7's are NOT great heads.. People in a factory stock HAVE to use them...

[frankiesaysrelax]

Ported E7s are great heads & will outflow many aftermarket aluminum heads. Check out these flow numbers.

http://www.powerheads.com/SB50.html

[BetterDays]

Ported E7s are great heads & will outflow many aftermarket aluminum heads. Check out these flow numbers.

http://www.powerheads.com/SB50.html

Over a grand for E7's.....

Damn, I should be selling these to suckers who would pay that kind of money for an E7...

And, they use the Windsor Seniors.. check out some others instead of just Windsor Seniors....

[83GTvert]

This is a site I found back when I was researching what heads to buy.

http://home.isoa.net/~mharrisj/fordhead.html

[frankiesaysrelax]

Ported E7s are great heads & will outflow many aftermarket aluminum heads. Check out these flow numbers.

http://www.powerheads.com/SB50.html

Over a grand for E7's.....

Damn, I should be selling these to suckers who would pay that kind of money for an E7...

And, they use the Windsor Seniors.. check out some others instead of just Windsor Seniors....

$695 is over a grand? :roll:

It may be news to you and many other people, but E7s can be made into decent performance heads. Certainly not the equals of AFRs or TFS heads but not far off either.

AFR 165s 250 intake 185 exhaust @ .500 lift
AFR 185s 267 intake 185 exhaust @ .500 lift

TFS TW 251 intake 187 exhaust @ .500 lift

As mentioned, the PowerHeads flow 217 intake and 174 exhaust @ .500 lift. Not nearly as good as the top-of-the-line aluminum heads but on par or better than many other aluminum heads, for example the old TFS Street Heats @ 225 intake 132 exhaust. Besides that, flow numbers aren't everything. The PowerHeads make those flow numbers with smaller ports and as a result have good velocity & low speed torque, perfect for a street car. Not the heads I would recommend for an all-out street car or a race car, but undeniably a great set of heads for the street. 38hp & 39ft/lbs of torque at the rear wheels is nothing to sniff at.

[Old_Timer]

FYI guys and gals....

If you're buying heads because someone claims their heads flow more
than others, you're in deep trouble.

A flow bench measures air movement in a very rudimentary
way - steady-state flow at a constant depression (vacuum). The flow bench can't simulate the effects of pistons going up and down, the reversion pulses as the valves open and close, the sonic waves that resonate inside the runners, the inertia of fuel droplets, and all of the other phenomena that influence engine performance in the real world.


When you flow test a cylinder head, you are simply measuring how far you can move the liquid in a manometer. The bigger you make the port, the more it flows but if you bolt a sewer pipe on to a flow bench it will generate terriffic flow numbers.

If airflow were everything, then you would always use the longest duration camshaft you could find but it won't work in real world scenario because of emission, driveability concern and fuel economy.

bottom line..
Flow numbers don't mean chit. Pick the right combos and listen to engine builder not the software programs that claimed to be able to predict an engine's performance based on airflow numbers.

Unfortunately, a critical shortcoming of many of these programs is that they are based on inaccurate information or false assumptions. A computer is an excellent calculator, but it is not an experienced engine builder.

Hope this clears up for everybody.

[frankiesaysrelax]

FYI guys and gals....

If you're buying heads because someone claims their heads flow more
than others, you're in deep trouble.

Old Timer, thanks for explaining that in greater detail. I mentioned it but didn't go into detail. You really laid it down. :D


Besides that, flow numbers aren't everything. The PowerHeads make those flow numbers with smaller ports and as a result have good velocity & low speed torque, perfect for a street car.

Bottom line here is what the dyno tells you, not the flowbench. The E7TE PowerHeads are a bolt-on 38hp and 39 ft/lbs of torque at the rear wheels. I'd say that qualifies them as a serious performance head.

[85saleencoupe]

FYI guys and gals....

If you're buying heads because someone claims their heads flow more
than others, you're in deep trouble.

Old Timer, thanks for explaining that in greater detail. I mentioned it but didn't go into detail. You really laid it down. :D


Besides that, flow numbers aren't everything. The PowerHeads make those flow numbers with smaller ports and as a result have good velocity & low speed torque, perfect for a street car.

Bottom line here is what the dyno tells you, not the flowbench. The E7TE PowerHeads are a bolt-on 38hp and 39 ft/lbs of torque at the rear wheels. I'd say that qualifies them as a serious performance head.

E7'S JUNK JUNK JUNK put all the money in the world into them and a stock pair of after markets will kill them

[FoxChassis]

E7'S JUNK JUNK JUNK put all the money in the world into them and a stock pair of after markets will kill them.
Sure the aftermarket heads will kill them, at twice the price of E7s.

[frankiesaysrelax]

E7'S JUNK JUNK JUNK put all the money in the world into them and a stock pair of after markets will kill them

Why don't you post an ad in the wanted sections for a clue? Maybe you could get one that way. :roll:

[Zap's 85 GT]

E7's have potential, but not that much. There is only so much you can do to them.

[Old_Timer]

E7'S JUNK JUNK JUNK put all the money in the world into them and a stock pair of after markets will kill them

wow....you're 1/2 right.
any aftermarket heads will outflowed stock E7 heads but you forgot one thing. If it wasn't for E7 heads Mustang performance will be at the bottom of the barrel back in the late 80's and early 90's. [ Technology wasn't available back then if it is available then it is mucho dinero.]

Before you come and bashing me...look at NMRA low 12 second Factory stock class. They're running unmolested E7 heads. That's something to be proud of.

[Zap's 85 GT]

Before you come and bashing me...look at NMRA low 12 second Factory stock class. They're running unmolested E7 heads. That's something to be proud of

You wouldnt want to drive those cars on the street. Cams have so much duration(to get air in and out of the engine) they dont do much under 2500 rpm's. They run those heads because they HAVE to. Comprimising(working with) the entire engine combination in lew of them. ET's are low but trap speeds arent really as high as you'd expect. The car's are 95% hook.

[Old_Timer]

Before you come and bashing me...look at NMRA low 12 second Factory stock class. They're running unmolested E7 heads. That's something to be proud of

You wouldnt want to drive those cars on the street. Cams have so much duration(to get air in and out of the engine) they dont do much under 2500 rpm's. They run those heads because they HAVE to. Comprimising(working with) the entire engine combination in lew of them. ET's are low but trap speeds arent really as high as you'd expect. The car's are 95% hook.

No..No..No...

They're running Factory stock hyd roller camshaft. :)

[85saleencoupe]

Before you come and bashing me...look at NMRA low 12 second Factory stock class. They're running unmolested E7 heads. That's something to be proud of

You wouldnt want to drive those cars on the street. Cams have so much duration(to get air in and out of the engine) they dont do much under 2500 rpm's. They run those heads because they HAVE to. Comprimising(working with) the entire engine combination in lew of them. ET's are low but trap speeds arent really as high as you'd expect. The car's are 95% hook.

excactly man but some of these guys believe what they want to believe and dont want to listen to anyone else.

[Evil86lx]

Before you come and bashing me...look at NMRA low 12 second Factory stock class. They're running unmolested E7 heads. That's something to be proud of

You wouldnt want to drive those cars on the street. Cams have so much duration(to get air in and out of the engine) they dont do much under 2500 rpm's. They run those heads because they HAVE to. Comprimising(working with) the entire engine combination in lew of them. ET's are low but trap speeds arent really as high as you'd expect. The car's are 95% hook.

excactly man but some of these guys believe what they want to believe and dont want to listen to anyone else.

Sounds like some one else we know.........you!!!

kyle

[Old_Timer]

Before you come and bashing me...look at NMRA low 12 second Factory stock class. They're running unmolested E7 heads. That's something to be proud of

You wouldnt want to drive those cars on the street. Cams have so much duration(to get air in and out of the engine) they dont do much under 2500 rpm's. They run those heads because they HAVE to. Comprimising(working with) the entire engine combination in lew of them. ET's are low but trap speeds arent really as high as you'd expect. The car's are 95% hook.

excactly man but some of these guys believe what they want to believe and dont want to listen to anyone else.

This will be my last post on this topic.
What I said is 100% truth. I've been involved with NHRA and NMRA racing for a long time.
I'm familar with "Factory Stock" class.
The rules did specifically said stock heads and stock camshaft.
There are low 12 sec Mustang running with stock E7 heads and stock hyd roller camshaft.

What made these cars to go fast...
extremely careful balancing and blueprinting and fine tuning. 8O

go and ask anybody on NMRA board or read NMRA rule book or stop at any NMRA race and have a chat with them. :)

[Zap's 85 GT]

They're running Factory stock hyd roller camshaft

Sorry, but thats just not true.

Staright from the rule book:
http://www.nmraracing.com/rules/factory_stock/

5.0 HO: Camshaft maximum lobe lift is .278”; Minimum lobe lift is .270. Maximum valve lift at the retainer not to exceed .480”.
Lobe duration is checked at the below specified lobe lifts.
Lift Maximum duration
.050” 211
.100” 179
.150” 148
.200” 115
Maximum lobe separation angle – 117 degrees
Minimum lobe separation angle – 115 degrees

For 5.0 HO applications, valve lift will be checked at retainer with pushrod & rocker as run, using a blocked up OEM Ford hydraulic roller lifter, at zero lash. Durations/Lobe Separations are checked with camshaft & hydraulic roller lifter in block. Duration/Lobe separation is measured at the crankshaft. Lobe lift is measured at the hydraulic roller lifter.

If you think that racers are winning their class with completely factory camshaft specs then thats pretty naieve thinking. Racers will use every single cmpedative edge they can get away with. Especially with such a compedative field with serious limitations for engine modification.

[FoxChassis]

They're running Factory stock hyd roller camshaft

Sorry, but thats just not true.

Staright from the rule book:
http://www.nmraracing.com/rules/factory_stock/

5.0 HO: Camshaft maximum lobe lift is .278”; Minimum lobe lift is .270. Maximum valve lift at the retainer not to exceed .480”.
Lobe duration is checked at the below specified lobe lifts.
Lift Maximum duration
.050” 211
.100” 179
.150” 148
.200” 115
Maximum lobe separation angle – 117 degrees
Minimum lobe separation angle – 115 degrees

For 5.0 HO applications, valve lift will be checked at retainer with pushrod & rocker as run, using a blocked up OEM Ford hydraulic roller lifter, at zero lash. Durations/Lobe Separations are checked with camshaft & hydraulic roller lifter in block. Duration/Lobe separation is measured at the crankshaft. Lobe lift is measured at the hydraulic roller lifter.
Those are the specs of the stock '85-'93 (exc. '93 Cobra/Cobra "R") hydraulic roller camshaft. So which part is "just not true"?

[Zap's 85 GT]

:roll:

Stock Specs of the 86-93 HO camshaft are:

Valve Lift Intake w/1.6 rockers-.444,
Valve Lift Exhaust w/1.6 rockers-.444, Duration Intake (at .050)-204, Duration Exhaust (at .050)-204, Lobe Center-116,

[Old_Timer]

LMAO.....


here's what you posted
5.0 HO: Camshaft maximum lobe lift is .278”

multiply that .278 to rocker arm ratio....see what you come up with..
:roll:

FYI..Foxchassis is 100% correct!

[ultimatebulk]

Looks like I opened up a can of worms with my Factory Stock comment on page ONE. :lol:

btw - one thing we can decipher from saleencoupe is that he's misinformed ... poor fellow.

Zak in Riverside

[85stang]

Plus read the line above what you posted:

1.18a) CAMSHAFT: Stock lobe 5.0 HO or 4.6L camshaft required. Specified duration, lift, and lobe separation required

[Zap's 85 GT]

I know what I posted. Limits are pushed to the max of the tolerances to maxamixe every advantage they can. I even stated in a previous post that only duration and lobe separation is altered to fall within the letter of the rules.

[Evil86lx]

One of thing's that I love about FEP is that we can have this kind of discussion without anyone getting butt hurt.

Well their's alway's one exception.. and you know who you are.

kyle

[85saleencoupe]

lol you guys just are not seeing the big picture.take a everday street car the stock heads can be made to run fine,**** i have seen e5's in the 12s dont mean that its the best setup you can run.the guys that run the heads have too for there setups,if they were allowed to run a after market head instead of the e7 what do you think they will run?,im not cutting down anyones combo trust me i have alot of respect for alot of you.all im saying is lets use our heads and think about it ask any 10 sec car and find out what heads he is running i garantee you will deff not find a n/a car with them and not many if at all even power adder cars running them.

[Evil86lx]

MM&FF put a stock block stock cam stock E7 car into the 10's with a set of turbo's.

The point is that they are not "junk" and that they are a viable alternative.

kyle

[Zap's 85 GT]

MM&FF put a stock block stock cam stock E7 car into the 10's with a set of turbo's

LOL. Thats almost cheating.

I agree. My car is running ported E-7's and is a joy to drive. Heads are not the be-all end-all of a car's combo. Although far from junk, they are just fine for 99% of mustang 5.0's on he road today. People may want better, but the cost for them does not warrant the gain.

[85_Capri_4v]

:roll:

Stock Specs of the 86-93 HO camshaft are:

Valve Lift Intake w/1.6 rockers-.444,
Valve Lift Exhaust w/1.6 rockers-.444, Duration Intake (at .050)-204, Duration Exhaust (at .050)-204, Lobe Center-116,

I believe when it comes to stock class racing they are allowed to use a cam with the same lift as stock but duration can be altered...obviously a custom cam.

Heads are supposed to have the same port CC's but are often altered for better port velocity. They aren't just grabbing some E7's and giving them a valve job I assure you.

[Zap's 85 GT]

I believe when it comes to stock class racing they are allowed to use a cam with the same lift as stock but duration can be altered...obviously a custom cam.

Heads are supposed to have the same port CC's but are often altered for better port velocity. They aren't just grabbing some E7's and giving them a valve job I assure you.

Exactly!

They even have the option of using other heads in that racing class.

Permitted Cylinder Head List, Parts Number: These are the only permitted cylinder heads and part numbers for competition in this category. If your cylinder head is not on this list, it is prohibited.
1) Stock Ford OEM 5.0 HO Cast Iron Cylinder Heads. (*Deduct 250#)
2) FRPP/SVO GT-40 Cast Iron Cylinder Heads
3) FRPP/SVO GT-40P Cast Iron Cylinder Heads

The E-7's give the racers a 250lb weight break though. But I'm not 100% sure if the HP gains are worth the weight disadvantages. I'm sure the class racers know.

[frankiesaysrelax]

lol you guys just are not seeing the big picture.take a everday street car the stock heads can be made to run fine,**** i have seen e5's in the 12s dont mean that its the best setup you can run.the guys that run the heads have too for there setups,if they were allowed to run a after market head instead of the e7 what do you think they will run?,im not cutting down anyones combo trust me i have alot of respect for alot of you.all im saying is lets use our heads and think about it ask any 10 sec car and find out what heads he is running i garantee you will deff not find a n/a car with them and not many if at all even power adder cars running them.

Well, of course if you are building a 10sec N/A SBF no way are E7s going to cut the mustard no matter how you port them. I wouldn't even consider them on an 11sec N/A combo, even though you can certainly do it, you would be way better off with aftermarket heads. I think we can all agree on that.

[Old_Timer]

wow...seem like you guys know everything. :roll:

tell you what...why don't you visit any NMRA Race and observed what the factory stock racer are doing.

Please..for the last time..re read the rule book carefully....


1.18a) CAMSHAFT: Stock lobe 5.0 HO or 4.6L camshaft required. Specified duration, lift, and lobe separation required.

stock lobe...means stock duration.
now think for a moment...
if the duration is altered then the specified numbers below won't be in specs!
see rule and specs below.
by the way...You don't need a slide rule expert to figure it out. :roll:

Lobe duration is checked at the below specified lobe lifts.
Lift Maximum duration
.050” 211
.100” 179
.150” 148
.200” 115
Maximum lobe separation angle – 117 degrees
Minimum lobe separation angle – 115 degrees

as for cylinder head...
How can you altered combustion chamber and port cc 's without welding or epoxy or grinding?

read the rules...
1.17d) HEADS, PORTING: Prohibited. Runners and combustion chambers must retain OEM appearance. Final acceptance at the discretion of NMRA Technical Department.

1.17e) HEADS, WELDING/EPOXY: Prohibited.

again!..you don't need a slide rule expert to figure it out!

if you guys think I'm B.S then why don't you build a engine to NMRA factory stock class specs your way and go NMRA racing.

I guarantee you will be disqualified! 8O You all should be there and be surprise on number of Tech inspections and engine tear downs.
Approx 75% will be require to corrected their mistakes or get disqualified.

[Evil86lx]

Another reason I dont ever want to build a fastory stock car... Man's that's alot of frickin work.

kyle

[Old_Timer]

Another reason I dont ever want to build a fastory stock car... Man's that's alot of frickin work.

kyle

I agreed with you....but I love it. 8)

[Mike Croke]

now that my motor in ym cars going again im trying to finish my built motor, moms buying me heads for b-day. its a 331 with 10 to 1 comp. custom cam, civ jr intake,want 6200rpm and will be seeing nitrous, are vic jr heads to much?will be a race car that will see weekend driving a lil bit

The Vics would be a bit larger than you need but not too big to cause problems. If you can get them for $850, do it. With the 331, they'll work fine.

You'll find the better quality heads are the Edelbrocks and AFRs because of their CNC manufacturing process. There are other heads that will make more power but generally require more hands-on work prior to installing such as the Canfields and Brodix.

E7s have a lower performance ceiling than any aftermarket head. The tricks/techniques applied to E7s can be applied to other heads with similar results. Any racer running E7s is only doing so because of class rules.

[Marz]

wow...seem like you guys know everything. :roll:

tell you what...why don't you visit any NMRA Race and observed what the factory stock racer are doing.

Please..for the last time..re read the rule book carefully....


1.18a) CAMSHAFT: Stock lobe 5.0 HO or 4.6L camshaft required. Specified duration, lift, and lobe separation required.

stock lobe...means stock duration.
now think for a moment...
if the duration is altered then the specified numbers below won't be in specs!
see rule and specs below.
by the way...You don't need a slide rule expert to figure it out. :roll:

Lobe duration is checked at the below specified lobe lifts.
Lift Maximum duration
.050” 211
.100” 179
.150” 148
.200” 115
Maximum lobe separation angle – 117 degrees
Minimum lobe separation angle – 115 degrees

as for cylinder head...
How can you altered combustion chamber and port cc 's without welding or epoxy or grinding?

read the rules...
1.17d) HEADS, PORTING: Prohibited. Runners and combustion chambers must retain OEM appearance. Final acceptance at the discretion of NMRA Technical Department.

1.17e) HEADS, WELDING/EPOXY: Prohibited.

again!..you don't need a slide rule expert to figure it out!

if you guys think I'm B.S then why don't you build a engine to NMRA factory stock class specs your way and go NMRA racing.

I guarantee you will be disqualified! 8O You all should be there and be surprise on number of Tech inspections and engine tear downs.
Approx 75% will be require to corrected their mistakes or get disqualified.

Funny thing.... the guy I bought my 85 from was starting to build it to a factory stock type class. He had tossed on a pair of "acid dipped" E7's. At first I was a bit confused about the "acid dipped" thing. Confused because I know you acid dip parts for cleaning. But I talked to a guy at work who does this same thing as a hobby... builds race cars. He said that Acid dipping heads was a stock class racer trick... similar to porting... but makes it look factory. Or at least thats how I understood it.

Am I wrong? And what exactly does this do?

[Old_Timer]

Funny thing.... the guy I bought my 85 from was starting to build it to a factory stock type class. He had tossed on a pair of "acid dipped" E7's. At first I was a bit confused about the "acid dipped" thing. Confused because I know you acid dip parts for cleaning. But I talked to a guy at work who does this same thing as a hobby... builds race cars. He said that Acid dipping heads was a stock class racer trick... similar to porting... but makes it look factory. Or at least thats how I understood it.

Am I wrong? And what exactly does this do?

No, you're not wrong. You are correct.

acid dipped solvent cleaned metal parts and leaves rough finish. [ almost like a glass bead metal surface.]

If you leave metal parts in acid tank long enough you'll removed material but you will not removed enough material to make a differences.

there is another way around it.....you polished the ports and combustion chamber to your desired specification then acid dipped the heads. The polished surface will become rough. [ like I mention above..almost like a glass bead metal surface ]
Unfortunately the amount of port and combustion chamber cc's will be change and can be easily check with manometer.

Nowadays all NHRA and NMRA Tech inspectors will ask you to removed your cylinder head for cc's check. :(

[Marz]

No, you're not wrong. You are correct.

acid dipped solvent cleaned metal parts and leaves rough finish. [ almost like a glass bead metal surface.]

If you leave metal parts in acid tank long enough you'll removed material but you will not removed enough material to make a differences.

there is another way around it.....you polished the ports and combustion chamber to your desired specification then acid dipped the heads. The polished surface will become rough. [ like I mention above..almost like a glass bead metal surface ]
Unfortunately the amount of port and combustion chamber cc's will be change and can be easily check with manometer.

Nowadays all NHRA and NMRA Tech inspectors will ask you to removed your cylinder head for cc's check. :(

Cool... thanks. I do not plan on racing this car like that. so I don't need to worry about it. There is the Califfornia emissions legal 347 stroker though that I may be doing in the future after I finish with my schooling. A freind is advising me on the build up... and with his help I plan on getting at least 400 hp from that 347... maybe more. And because of cali.. I can't have too hot of a cam... I still need it to pass smog.

[ultimatebulk]

How can you altered combustion chamber and port cc 's without welding or epoxy or grinding?

I have a friend that is a Factory Stock Racer.

FACT: There are casting variances between otherwise identical E7 heads.

My friend said he tested between 60 and 80 sets of E7's before finding a set which had a lower CC and flowed better than all the rest. He did the same with the HO intake needed to run in the class.

The cams are by no means stock. They are custom pieces which do indeed stay under .500 lift, but the duration specs are completely different.

Shortblock tolerances are also completely different... etc. There is such a thing as a stock compression race-built shortblock. None of the factory stock racers are actually running STOCK shortblocks. They're all punched out to at least a 306 (the max being 310ci).

Just like there are such a thing as "factory freaks," there are also "casting freaks" as well.

[85_Capri_4v]

wow...seem like you guys know everything. :roll:

tell you what...why don't you visit any NMRA Race and observed what the factory stock racer are doing.

Please..for the last time..re read the rule book carefully....


1.18a) CAMSHAFT: Stock lobe 5.0 HO or 4.6L camshaft required. Specified duration, lift, and lobe separation required.

stock lobe...means stock duration.
now think for a moment...
if the duration is altered then the specified numbers below won't be in specs!
see rule and specs below.
by the way...You don't need a slide rule expert to figure it out. :roll:

Lobe duration is checked at the below specified lobe lifts.
Lift Maximum duration
.050” 211
.100” 179
.150” 148
.200” 115
Maximum lobe separation angle – 117 degrees
Minimum lobe separation angle – 115 degrees

as for cylinder head...
How can you altered combustion chamber and port cc 's without welding or epoxy or grinding?

read the rules...
1.17d) HEADS, PORTING: Prohibited. Runners and combustion chambers must retain OEM appearance. Final acceptance at the discretion of NMRA Technical Department.

1.17e) HEADS, WELDING/EPOXY: Prohibited.

again!..you don't need a slide rule expert to figure it out!

if you guys think I'm B.S then why don't you build a engine to NMRA factory stock class specs your way and go NMRA racing.

I guarantee you will be disqualified! 8O You all should be there and be surprise on number of Tech inspections and engine tear downs.
Approx 75% will be require to corrected their mistakes or get disqualified.


Personally I don't think you are BS I just think you are rude. As far as my post goes I said...I believe when it comes to stock class racing they are allowed to use a cam with the same lift as stock but duration can be altered...obviously a custom cam.

Heads are supposed to have the same port CC's but are often altered for better port velocity. They aren't just grabbing some E7's and giving them a valve job I assure you.


By stock class I wasn't referring to NMRA I was referring to NHRA and I may be wrong and if I am so what.? Whether it is stock or super stock that allows you to use stock LIFT custom cams and readjusting the port flow while maintaining total volume I am not sure, it doesn't matter to me because what I said was not written in stone.

Although what you said was not directed at me personally the way you often come across in these replies is abrasive. If you do not know what TACT is I suggest looking that up and studying it's definition, consider practicing it.

[Old_Timer]

How can you altered combustion chamber and port cc 's without welding or epoxy or grinding?

I have a friend that is a Factory Stock Racer.

FACT: There are casting variances between otherwise identical E7 heads.

My friend said he tested between 60 and 80 sets of E7's before finding a set which had a lower CC and flowed better than all the rest. He did the same with the HO intake needed to run in the class.

That's 100% correct. and now you know why " Factory Stock " class is very expensive.

They don't stop at cylinder heads. They also go through "X" amount of crankshaft, pistons, intake manifolds and connecting rods.

What they look for is highest flowing induction system without altering and lightest crankshaft, pistons, rods....etc.etc..


The cams are by no means stock. They are custom pieces which do indeed stay under .500 lift, but the duration specs are completely different.

In NHRA rules you would be correct but in NMRA rules it must be stock lift and duration.

[Old_Timer]

By stock class I wasn't referring to NMRA I was referring to NHRA and I may be wrong and if I am so what.? Whether it is stock or super stock that allows you to use stock LIFT custom cams and readjusting the port flow while maintaining total volume I am not sure, it doesn't matter to me because what I said was not written in stone.

Although what you said was not directed at me personally the way you often come across in these replies is abrasive. If you do not know what TACT is I suggest looking that up and studying it's definition, consider practicing it.

FYI..Maybe I'm being a little too harsh but at least I'm teaching you Son. I've got pm message from members here saying other things about you. 8O
They want to know who is correct and how to interpret the rules and they also asked me to posted here. 8)

I do know what " TACT "means. all I can say is be careful on what you preach!
back to topic...if you're referring to NHRA rules then why don't you say so?

[FoxChassis]

Funny thing.... the guy I bought my 85 from was starting to build it to a factory stock type class. He had tossed on a pair of "acid dipped" E7's. At first I was a bit confused about the "acid dipped" thing. Confused because I know you acid dip parts for cleaning. But I talked to a guy at work who does this same thing as a hobby... builds race cars. He said that Acid dipping heads was a stock class racer trick... similar to porting... but makes it look factory. Or at least thats how I understood it.

Am I wrong? And what exactly does this do?

No, you're not wrong. You are correct.

Acid dipped solvent cleaned metal parts and leaves rough finish. [Almost like a glass bead metal surface.]

If you leave metal parts in acid tank long enough you'll remove material but you will not remove enough material to make a difference.
That should be acid etching, not acid dipping. If you "dip" a part that means you submerse it entirely. You certainly don't want to be removing material and leaving a rough-textured surface on the the valve guides, or the deck, valve spring seats, etc.

[Old_Timer]

That should be acid etching, not acid dipping. If you "dip" a part that means you submerse it entirely. You certainly don't want to be removing material and leaving a rough-textured surface on the the valve guides, or the deck, valve spring seats, etc.

actually you dipped the whole parts then machined the valve guides, deck surface..etc..etc

Hope this helps.

[85_Capri_4v]

LMAO.....


here's what you posted
5.0 HO: Camshaft maximum lobe lift is .278”

multiply that .278 to rocker arm ratio....see what you come up with..
:roll:

FYI..Foxchassis is 100% correct!

.4448"

[plstktnkr2]

why not twisted wedge heads? I have seen them for 100 bucks more than price of Vic jr's big valves good flow whats not to like?

[85_Capri_4v]

Being as he has already bought his parts for the 331 and knowing the availability for pistons for the 331 is a bit different that the 347 (since I am building a 331 also) he would need pistons to accept the TW design or have the slugs fly cut and lowering the compression. I have other reason why I do not like the TW heads but I am not going into that now. I am not saying thay are not good heads but for me they are not even a choice for me in anyway.

Capri

[Delk Racer]

Why do people want to spend a load of money on E7's?
The cost of Iron Heads is not much more than porting, polishing, new valve springs, valve grind, etc.....

The E7's are NOT great heads.. People in a factory stock HAVE to use them...

hey smart guy, they can use GT-40's also. Most use GT-40's

[85 Notchback]

Why do people want to spend a load of money on E7's?
The cost of Iron Heads is not much more than porting, polishing, new valve springs, valve grind, etc.....

The E7's are NOT great heads.. People in a factory stock HAVE to use them...

hey smart guy, they can use GT-40's also. Most use GT-40's
They could also use E5's if they really wanted to lol But I don't know wjy they would.

[Delk Racer]

They're running Factory stock hyd roller camshaft

Sorry, but thats just not true.



If you think that racers are winning their class with completely factory camshaft specs then thats pretty naieve thinking. Racers will use every single cmpedative edge they can get away with. Especially with such a compedative field with serious limitations for engine modification.



actually that is true. i race in NMRA Factory Stock. My buddy Todd Savidge had the fastest E-7 head car which ran 12.0's he was using a stock cam. not a custom cam. you can run a custom cam uder the guidelines. he wasn't though. and as far as factory stock racers not using stock cams to win well that's just not true either. Bob Cosby and Shawn Johnson were the only ones to win Factory Stock races this past season, and they did it with stock cams. mind you , they were mod motors, but nonetheless they were stock.

[BetterDays]

Why do people want to spend a load of money on E7's?
The cost of Iron Heads is not much more than porting, polishing, new valve springs, valve grind, etc.....

The E7's are NOT great heads.. People in a factory stock HAVE to use them...

hey smart guy, they can use GT-40's also. Most use GT-40's
Hey, smart ass..

conversation about #7's, not all "stock" heads.
Please drive through.

[Delk Racer]

Why do people want to spend a load of money on E7's?
The cost of Iron Heads is not much more than porting, polishing, new valve springs, valve grind, etc.....

The E7's are NOT great heads.. People in a factory stock HAVE to use them...

hey smart guy, they can use GT-40's also. Most use GT-40's
Hey, smart ass..

conversation about #7's, not all "stock" heads.
Please drive through.

dude i was replying to your comment. you said they have to use the E-7's. I didn't sau it , you did. drive through???????? ok , anyways.

[85_Capri_4v]

Please drive through.

SWEET!

[85 Notchback]

Why do people want to spend a load of money on E7's?
The cost of Iron Heads is not much more than porting, polishing, new valve springs, valve grind, etc.....

The E7's are NOT great heads.. People in a factory stock HAVE to use them...

hey smart guy, they can use GT-40's also. Most use GT-40's
Hey, smart ass..

conversation about #7's, not all "stock" heads.
Please drive through.

Play nice kiddies.

[MurPHy]

Why do people want to spend a load of money on E7's?
The cost of Iron Heads is not much more than porting, polishing, new valve springs, valve grind, etc.....

The E7's are NOT great heads.. People in a factory stock HAVE to use them...

hey smart guy, they can use GT-40's also. Most use GT-40's
They could also use E5's if they really wanted to lol But I don't know wjy they would.

E5s,.......E7s......Is there such a thing as E6s?

[85_Capri_4v]

Yes, on the 86 5.0 HO and I think the Crown vics used them for a while.

[Old_Timer]

Yes, on the 86 5.0 HO and I think the Crown vics used them for a while.


also found on T Bird, Cougar, Towncar, Grand Marquis and trucks.

[85_Capri_4v]

Yes, on the 86 5.0 HO and I think the Crown vics used them for a while.


also found on T Bird, Cougar, Towncar, Grand Marquis and trucks.

Would that be only 86 302 trucks? Since if memory serves me correct they had the car EFI in 86.

[frankiesaysrelax]

I had a set of E6s. The only person who wanted them was the scrap metal guy. :P

[85_Capri_4v]

ditto

[Old_Timer]

Yes, on the 86 5.0 HO and I think the Crown vics used them for a while.


also found on T Bird, Cougar, Towncar, Grand Marquis and trucks.

Would that be only 86 302 trucks? Since if memory serves me correct they had the car EFI in 86.

Ford Motor Company is very unpredictable company.

E6 heads can be found on any cars and trucks up to 88.

I have all original un-molested EFI 88 T Bird 5.0 roller cam motor that have E6 heads. 8O :(

My friend's 87 carburetor F150 351 W also have E6 heads. 8O :(

These motors are original, never been torn apart and they have all the mounting brackets and doo dads that was installed from the assembly line.

[FoxChassis]

All passenger cars in '86 got E6. In '87, only the Mustang and F-150 (302) got E7 heads. The rest continued with E6 heads.

[MurPHy]

I had a set of E6s. The only person who wanted them was the scrap metal guy. :P

Why is that? I always hear about E5s and E7s, but never E6s. Why? Are they bad heads?

[frankiesaysrelax]

I had a set of E6s. The only person who wanted them was the scrap metal guy. :P

Why is that? I always hear about E5s and E7s, but never E6s. Why? Are they bad heads?

They are boat anchors. They were Ford's attempt at a "high swirl" combustion chamber to promote clean burning and lower emissions. I think the problem was they shrouded the valves really badly anyway, they totally sucked for perfomance. I think I remember reading somewhere that they can be ported for better performance but I think you had to reshape the combustion chambers or something, it sounded like a big headache. Why bother when E7s are cheap and easily available, not to mention whats available in the aftermarket or from Ford.

[85_Capri_4v]

OK we have successfully thread jacked this guys thread but has anyone heard how his head gasket situation is on his stock block?