Questions for zak

[boway]

Hey zak, I was reading your car profile and I see you are using a ADS Superchip, are you still running CFI? I also see you are using a H-pipe, are you running dual exhaust? Thanks, Binnie

[zak]

Binnie,

Currently I have the ADS Superchip pulled out. It was basically two 5 kohm resistors across the air and water temp sensor circuits, making the EEC think it was in warm up mode. I had removed the resistor on the water temp sesnor so that it would run closed loop under crusie. There was a very low ohm resistor across one of the PIP ignition circuits that I beleive altered the advance curve. I had gotten some pinging and pulled it out.

I have collected pretty much all the bits to emulate the 180 hp CFI setup used on the "after 11/84" Mustang setup, basically the computer and CFI throttlebody (-CA suffix, last update). Interestingly the donar Mustang did not have the flow deflector that is discussed on James Peterson's site. I still need to pick-up the air cleaner assembly as it was different from '84-85 LTD LX as well (air cleaner element was larger, and common with some 68/69 Ford hi perf V8 applications).

Am aware that the hot ticket is to convert to SEFI, I just can't seem to find the time to do such a conversion on mine, maybe someday.

Am currently running an 88 Mustang factory headers and H pipe, down to s single Borla having dual 2 inch in/out pipes. Had hoped to run dual 2 inch pipes over the drivers side axle but they would not fit. Have plans to fit a single 3 inch pipe assuming the rest of the car gets done (thinking of an EXplorer long block, and need to re-door and repaint, agian). Car has a single 2.25 inch pipe on it now that am certain restricts power.

Current issue keeping the car off the road is that the car throws a Code 41 during KEOR, and the O2 sensor (now new) will not switch rich/lean. I suspect a secondary air problem, as disconnecting and plugging the vacuum line to the diverter valve actually gets it to switch rich at idle, but still lean at steady 2 krpm in neutral. Will try to disconnect the feeder hose to the secondary exhaust ports in the secondary air assebmly, there is eveidence on th4e Corral that the diverter valves go bad on higher mileage cars.

Regards - zak

[boway]

Hey zak,

Was this ADS chip made for CFI cars? What is the part number?

The flow deflector you speak of is called a Eyebrow Gasket, I have two of them. I have some info on it and pictures I will dig up for you.

The only difference I can find in the after 11/84 Mustang computer is that it has one more wire going to it from the heated O2 sensor.

I know the after 11/84 Mustang had a AC cut off switch but what is the difference in the CFI throttle body? I see no differnce in the LTD LX and after 11/84 Mustang air cleaner, the filters are the same. I too plan to keep mine CFI.

I am having the same code 41 problem let me know what you find out.

Binnie

[zak]

Binnie -

The ADS Superchip I have was originally designed for the 86 Mustang.
I bought it back in 1989 after confering with ADS' engineers, who were confident it would work.

It mounts between the harness and the EEC. Since all it does is add resistance to the ACT, ECT, and PIP circuits while allowing all other signals to pass through, I guess as long as those circuits are on the same pinout locations then it would work. I will try to dig up the part number later today.

I do have an EEC-Tuner that I purchased for my SHO, have given some thought to using it to download the 85 LTD LX and late 85 Mustang HO CFI stored data and seeing if the timing, fuel and other tables can be figured out. There was at leat one fellow on Ford-fox.org that expressed interest in helping to sort through on the hexidecimal addressing stuff.

Do you know off hand which pin powers the O2 sensor heater (or what the other circuit is for)? I had upgraded to a HEGO several years ago, powering the heater off the ignition circuit. More recently I have gone to a 4 wire sensor so that the sensor has a direct ground path back to the EEC-IV.

Regards - zak

[zak]

Binnie - I forgot the air cleaner. I had noticed that the Hollander interchange indicates the 11/84+ Mustang CFI air cleaner is a different part. The notion that this later air cleaner helps HP came from:

http://www.mustangregistry.org/lx_85_86.htm

and

http://www.english.ilstu.edu/students/bchall2/mustang/

Finally, poking around www.motorcraft.com indicated that 2 air cleaner elements were found on the 84 and 85 CFI cars, the FA-97R and the FA-612R, with the later being indicated for LTD Police and 85 Mustang CFI.

If you have both housings, maybe you could measure the apparent height of the elements?

Regards - zak

[zak]

. . is 8674-A, for a 1986 Mustang 302 HO Automatic, according to the box. If you want to eumulate it I will get the strip colrs off of the PIP resistor, the ACT and ECT get 5 kohm resistors on each circuit. For a while, I ran the chip with a wire bypassing the ECT so that it would run closed loop.

- zak

[zak]

OK, with a Fluke 10 DVOM connected to the O2 ground and signal wires, it read lean all the time (< 0.1 volt). Disconnecting and plugging the vacuum line to the secondary air diverter (controls air pump feed to the cylinder exhaust ports) then caused it to run rich continuously at idle (> 0.85 volts), at steady 2 krpm in neutral it reads straight lean no switching.

Disconnected the actual hose that feeds secondary air to the exhaust ports. Covered the backflow pipe with a piece of duct tape. With DVOM took the car for a ride up and down a secondary highway. At 1300 rpm with cruise control on it signals lean with a jump to rich every 2 seconds or so. At 2 krpm in cruise it runs on the lean signal with a flash over 0.5 volts maybe every 4 or 5 seconds. Still no rich/lean switch at 2 krpm in neutral (it used to do this), and still gets Code 41 and 77 in KOER, snaped it all the way to 4500 rpm when I got the signal on the code reader.

Only thing left I haven;t checked, using both a 1985 Ford emissions manual and excerpts from a ~2000 Ford emissions manual, is fuel pressure. Have heard of these cars losing the low pressure pump but still being able to run off the high pressure external pump. Any other suggestions welcome . . . . .

zak

[boway]

Hey zak,

Here is the info I have on the Eyebrow Gasket.

I got this from "The Official Ford Mustang 5.0 Technical Reference & Performance Handbook 1979 thur 1993" by Al Kirschenbaum:

"In service, the production CFI system was found to have distribution difficulties at wide-open throttle. This problem initially manifested itself in 5-liter LTD police cars as lean-running front cylinders and over-rich bores in the rear. When the condition appeared to result from the way fuel came off the throttle plates, Ford fitted an "eyebrow" gasket that blocked off about 20% of each throttle bore across its back side. This plate redirects mixture flow toward the front of the manifold, to even out distribution to all cylinders. This special throttle body-to-manifold gasket was released as the factory fix at the end of CFI's production run."

This I found on the net: Holed Pistons.

Post:
"Thinking of buying a used Ford LTD LX with a 5.0 HO engine with 120K miles. Just wondering what should I look out for in this vehicle. Any issues with the powertrain?"

Reply:
"Watch for holed pistons - the intake manifold had an odd flaw wherein prolonged wide-open throttle caused the front cylinders to run lean and ping badly, destroying the pistons over time. I remember being at a municipal vehicle auction in 1987 and was surprised at the number of LTD (1985, 302 HO throttle body injection) police cars that ran roughly and blew smoke from their oil fill caps. I asked one of the city garage mechanics about it, and he mentioned the above air/fuel distribution problem. Other than that, a solid car."

I have two of these gaskets that came off late (5/85) production Police Cars. These two cars also had Silicone Hoses and the 86 style Mustang Fan Shroud with coolant reservoir and a truck reservoir in place of the LTD reservoir, so that it had dual reservoirs.

Eyebrow Gasket Pics.

Top:
http://ford.webbywarehouse.com/image/eyebrow1.jpg

Bottom:
http://ford.webbywarehouse.com/image/eyebrow2.jpg

I haven't been able to fine any Service Bulletins on this Gasket. I would guess that the general public never knew of this problem and that only late production Police Cars had them factory installed, and that the replacement Gasket was only available to Police Departments.

Automotive Recalls and Technical Service Bulletins for 1985 Ford Midsize LTD V8-302 5.0L HO. Provided by ALLDATA:

http://www.alldata.com/TSB/19/85191047.html

I believe this gasket can be made using a long .010" feeler gauge between two gaskets. I can trace out the gasket and give you measurements, let me know if you are interested.

TTYL, Binnie

[boway]

Hey zak,

The only difference I can see in my 84 and 85 Air Cleaner is one of them has a hole in the rear of it with a plug in it. I can't remember which is which but other than that they are the same.

The FA-97R air filter is 11"x2.75" and is for the 82 Mustang GT. The FA-612R air filter is 12.5"x2.875" and is for the 83 thru 85 Mustang GT and 84-85 LTD LX, Police. If you still have your stock Air Cleaner you have the large high flow one. I think some of the info out there is misleading on this subject.

TTYL, Binnie

[boway]

Hey zak,

I am still digging thru my notes to fine the pinout for the heated O2 EEC. I also will have more questions for you.

TTYL, Binnie

[zak]

Binne,

Have you measured the thickness of the sheet metal portion (it is sheet metal right)? Is it 0.010 inch? Does this plate go between the throttlebody and the phenolic spacer, or the phenolic spacer and the intae manifold - I am guessing the former.

Easy enough to scribe and punch, maybe from the proper sheet of stainless steel. Can you throw one on to a scanner and make a scanned image?

I tried to find my build date, forgot I had swapped the doors over. Where else besides the door plate to look? I have the original window stocker and some other info kicking around, would the last 6 digits of VIN be infomrative?

After mutilating my fuel pressure regulator trying to get to the pressure adjusting screw I have taken my -BA thorttlebody off. Using a caliper and looking at bore dimaeters, plate support rod thickness, and visually looking it over I can find no differences btween it and the -CA htrottlebody I have. Need to double check how far the plates swing open at WOT on each, who knows maybe the tweaked that to get at mixture distribution.

I know James P. was looking at adding thermocouples to his headers to see if he saw any edvidence of lean running on his LTD LX.

Maybe a piston hole is whats causing my Code 41 ;-(.

Should you change the title of this thread to "throttlebody injection advanced tuning" or something?

Appreciate the info - I did find various gaskets and spacers to use at both Autozone and Advanced Auto/Checker. The later had the complete phenolic spacer with gaskets laminated on to each side, FelPro 60529.

zak

[zak]

The number is located underneath the EGR valve, and more towards the passemger side (rear of manifold). I used some carb cleaner to make it stand out. COuldn;t quite get the first letter but I think its

E5AE9425BB

sorry have still not located my build date. Definetely did NOT have the flow redirecting plate below the throttle body.

Will post this same info on the for sale thread.

zak

[boway]

Hey zak,

I will start some new threads.

TTYL, Binnie

[shok]

hey nice to see someone pursuing the potential of the cfi. when you had that chip setup on, did you notice much of a difference in performance or MPG?

[zak]

Shok,

It definetly had more power in the 2500 to 3500 rpm range with all 3 inputs to the EEC jumpered. However, mpg went down by q to 2 mpg and after a couple of years I became worried about fuel washing down the cylinder walls and accelerated ring wear.

I forgot to metnion that at the time ADS included a 160 degree thermostat. Again richened the mixture.

Anyhow, I later took the "chip" apart and got rid of the added 5 kohm resistor on the ECT circuit, also went back to a 180 degree t-stat. I took the "chip" out a couple of years ago for an emissions test and have not re-installed it.

Current plans are to some time this year swap in a GT40P explorer long block, I think the high BSFC of that engine's cylinder head design, and the cam being very close to that of the HO CFI cars should make it a doable swap, but want to address the mixture distriubtion issue which boway has kindly researched. zak

[shok]

well anything that mentions more power is really tempting to me, but I can't afford risking any fuel penalty, when I work I commute about 200 miles a day. Now if the searching for a local job pays off you might be hearing from me again about the chip or resistor idea.
What I plan to do that shouldn't hurt MPG and make the car feel better is a shift kit in the AOD and some kind of cold air intake, maybe a mild cowl setup, to get the air right to the throttle body. I notice a big difference on how the car takes hills around here dependinng on air temp, and it definetly likes cooler air.

[zak]

Hey zak,

I am still digging thru my notes to fine the pinout for the heated O2 EEC. I also will have more questions for you.

TTYL, Binnie

Binnie, one of the pinouts I have for the CFI EEC-IV does show an optional heated O2 sensor.

I am wondering of only the Lincoln Mark VII LSC's got this option. As I've typed before, I was able to upgrade to a 3 wire heated sensor, and more recently have been trying to upgrade to a 4 wire (HEGO with internal ground, avoids spurious signals by avoiding the exhaust / block ground)

Maybe the LSC computer, being made for a HEGO, would start trimming fuel earlier in the warm up cycle? eg it would know to look for a switching EGO much sooner? I have heard of people getting 20 mpg town/28 city with the 85 Marks.

I will add to the Code 41 & 77 thread in case Whtstang is aware of something I've screwed up in trying to go to a 4 wire sensor . . . .

zak

[boway]

Hey zak,

Let me get some info together and I will get back to you in a day or so.

Binnie

[boway]

Hey zak,

Sorry I haven't got back to you sooner I am still digging thru my junk for my notes. I will tell you what I remember. I pulled a heated o2 sensor out of a 85 (4/85) 180 horse Mustang. I got the sensor the wiring and the EEC processor (E53F-F1B). The sensor had three wires. The connector going to it had four wires. One wire to the fuse box, one wire to the back of the head and two wires to the processor. The 85 Mark VII LSC also used a heated sensor but a different processor (E53F-V1C or E53F-U1B). The pinout and colors vary from model to model and year to year, best to use a Electrical & Vacuum Trouble-Shooting Manual for a LTD, Mustang and Mark for 85 to figure out the color and pin locations. I have all three but can't find them either. BTW there were 14 different processors used on the 84-85 CFI HO's.

TTYL, Binnie