For those of you sick of the brakes on your mustangs/capri's

[v8only]

Recently my father and my brother had the entire dash out of his 88 notch to swap it from a blue to a black dash and change the heater core. They did this.

Note that my brother 50 proof is in the process of a 5 lug conversion using sn95 parts, ranger axles etc, as his 88 is gonna go, and his 86 show for the most part. Anyhow, they swapped in an sn95 brake booster into his 88 notch. In order to get it in, they did NOT have to bash in the shock tower, as many thought, although they did have to oblong the holes in the firewall to slide it in. The difference, even with the stock 4 lug brake setup was night and day. Pedal effort was minimal, and I can truly say that alone made all the difference in the braking of his car.

However, the problem lies in the fact that people say there is differences in where the shock tower lies between the aero cars, and the four eye cars making installation of the sn95 brake booster impossible with a four eye, unless you are literally willing to bash a very large dent into your shock tower for clearance. In my book, that is completely unacceptable.

When My father gets to my bro's house later, he is going to measure the differences in the placement of the shocktowers between the 86 and the 88 stang. We are going to then scratch our heads and attempt to design a modification to the sn95 booster to make it fit in the 86 without the use of a very large sledgehammer.

We could just be blowing smoke up each others asses, but it is worth a try. I have a post going on the corral, and it seems that this booster swap is largely untreaded water for some reason. Succeed or fail, we'll get some good info from it so others know whether or not it is possible to do this.

Will keep you updated.

[white1983GT]

thanks, i would love to do this swap to mine.....if of course it is possible

[50 Proof]

i don't understand why an 86 fox would have strut towers located slightly different then 87-93's. I personally think it's just bad advice being passed around out on the corral, but we'll see.

[v8only]

I want to believe you, but omitting names, the guys who said it are pretty well known, so we'll see. When Dad comes over tonight, I asked him to measure up your two cars.

After driving your damn notch, I am uterly convinced now I want that sn95 booster setup in my vert, especially since my dash is already out.

Come hell or highwater, he's gonna figure out a way to fab it in ;) I hope.

[50 Proof]

yea but the people who said that on the corral are also people willing to smash in their strut tower. With that in mind, I already don't trust their judgement on certain issues, such as this one.

[Evil86lx]

I dont think that their is a difference in the shock tower's. Maybe their is but i dont think so..

kyle

[mfpmax]

Happens all the time with a lot of things, like people saying the 4 banger K-Member won't except a V8.

But that will be good info. I want to toss a complete SN95 suspension under my 85 in the future.

[v8only]

another guy at the corral chimed in, has an 84 ltd, and has the same problems. Everyone seems to thing for some reason the older foxes have less clearance. I guess we'll know for sure tonight.

[50 Proof]

now that I give this more thought, these are just misc ramblings, feel free to comment or add to what i'm saying...

If the strut towers were physically located differently on an 86 and older VS 87-93, wouldn't that mean the suspension would physically be located differently? If the strut tower's location was different, the suspension where the bottom of the strut mounts to would have be be located differently to accomodate.
I don't see why ford would even do such a thing, but hey, they love mixing metric and standard nuts and bolts which pisses me the hell off. :evil: So i guess one should expect ford do something stupid like this.

The more I think about it, the more I think the people on the corral don't know what they are talking about.

[Evil86lx]

I will be surprised if they are different.. Everyone knows that the folks at ford are a bunch of cheap bastards, thats why the stangs are on the same chassis as fairmonts etc etc... I really dont see them re tooling any stamping equipment to build the aero car's. That would cost money, kinda like giving us good brakes to start with would of cost money...

kyle

[v8only]

maybe the firewall is different?? I'm on the same boat with you all, I don't think there is a difference. Although I can't explain the mass conclusion about the bfh (big hammer) being needed on the 86's, unless it is just mass stupidity, which is possible. The guy who was talking about this though, really knows his stuff, which has me a little worried.

[Evil86lx]

What about using a booster from a SVO!!!! None of my or my friends SVO's have had ay pedal feel or braking problems. I dont know if they are any different, but they do have different part #s than a V8 car... :idea:

kyle

[CarlsV6]

The SVO idea is what we were kicking around over in the other thread but people were saying that they had the same part #'s as the 87-93?

[Freejack]

Another thought would be using a booster from a Mark VII, might be a little easier to get ahold of then one from an SVO (actually they may be the same part).

On the shock tower location, it could be the booster housings themselves are different rather than the sheet metal making up the shock towers and fire wall. It may be the booster canister is larger in diameter or thicker. That would mean the master cylinder would stick further out.

Another thought, if there is a difference, I'd be willing to bet it has something to do more with the location of the booster in the firewall than the location of the towers in relation to the rest of the chassis. It may be the 87+ Mustangs has a slight recess or depression where the face of the booster mounts.



Jake

[v8only]

This is good reading.

http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=325259&highlight=cobra+brake+booster

it seems that the firewall may be the difference.

[Evil86lx]

I'm pretty sure that you want to stay away from the lincoln and t-bird master cyl's and booster's, they had weird ABS stuff.

When i checked part #s for the booster a year ago Car Quest had different part #s... Weird.. Maybe I'll have one of the parts guys check on them for me..

kyle

[Coupester]

You don't want a Lincoln master cylinder, you want to use an 84-86 SVO master cylinder. Functionally, the Lincoln Mark VII master cylinder (without ABS) is the same as the 84-86 SVO, however the SVO m/c is made out of aluminum (much, much lighter), and the Mark VII m/c is made out of iron.

Chris

[Wildman_302]

ok i have been upgrading my brake system on my 85 gt with sn95 parts , and i found this site to be most helpful, hope it helps you guys out. They cover this topic at the bottom of the page

[url]http://mjbobbitt.home.comcast.net/mustang/mc.htm

[50 Proof]

http://sn95brakes.cjb.net/

is this the site your trying to link to? Matt90GTs website? I've read this site through and through at least 10 times so far.

[Wildman_302]

thats the site, after doing some extensive serching and reading, i read that you can use the 94-95 v-6 booster and you will not have to beat the strut tower, and it is designed for the larger brakes. i am at the booster point in my conversion. i sure hope this helps others out in the quest for better brakes

[50 Proof]

i upgraded my 88 to an SN95 V6 booster, with stock 88 brakes(for now). Night and day difference.

[Wildman_302]

so far i have changed the front spindles, brakes and lines on my 85 gt, using 95 parts, i found it to be the easiest way to upgrade to 5 lug and bigger brakes at the same time. plus that the only way to get my 98 cobra wheels to fit correctly, with no cleareance problems. right now i still have the 85 master cylinder and brake booster on it, and it stops great but the pedal just dont feel like i want it to. after i get the front brakes completly done, i am gonna put a rear disc setup from the 95 mustang under it next (complete rearend swap).

[Evil86lx]

http://www.wilwood.com/products/kits/dpsfbk/index.asp

Here's the front brake's that i have..
For the rear i am using SVO stuff. The SVO rear set up is larger than the SN95. SN95 rear brakes are 10inch non vented while the SVO is 11.65 vented.

I still have not figured out what wheels i'm going to run. I know SVO wheels will fit but they clear the front calipers by a 1/4 inch. I felt that was a little close and want a 17inch wheel. Thats why they are not on yet..

http://www.wilwood.com/tjm/index.asp

Here's Willwoods main sight..

kyle

[v8only]

Corey picked up bullits from a newer gt, haven't put them on yet, but I am pretty sure they are 17's and they look sharp as hell.

[50 Proof]

17x8 inch Bullit wheels. I like them alot. I can't wait to put them on. IMO one of the nicest 99+ wheels ford put on the mustang.

I used to have a picture of them on my work PC, but Sys Admin is in the process of building me a new PC, so I cleaned everything off the PC i'm on.

[Evil86lx]

I like the Bullit's, but i was thinking 94-95 cobra wheels. I'm looking at the cobra wheels do to a low budget. That and i still may use the 86 for the SVO clone and those cobra wheels look like they belong on a SVO..

kyle

[50 Proof]

i picked up a set of 4 bullits with tires for 5 bills. I'm not sure what the cobra wheels go for though. Check all your local classified ads. People on Ebay seem to have a set ridiculous price.

[silver85]

guys I have two words for you on the booster fitting in some cars and rather tightly in others.


Production Tolerances.


There is a great bit of difference between the bodies joints from car to car. I can say that I know of a person on the corral who had to bang his 88 strut tower to get the booster to fit. Yet here 50 proof did not. I personally believe it is based on individual vehicles as to whether there is enough room or not. I don't think it boils down to a year grouping like 83-86 because of _______. I have seen several posts on the corral and other message boards of people trying to nail it. Fact is, every car is different. A millimeter here a millimeter there. it all adds up and shows up in certain areas of the car.

Take this as you wish because it is merely my opinion based on what I have seen and what I have read.

I know about production tolerances. Take a look at what I am doing to my 88


88GT cut in half (http://www.geocities.com/mt83rd/Goodson_halves1.html)

I have more pics of the car if interested. :D

[v8only]

Well, I have some really good news. My father measured the differences between my bros 88 (that currently has the sn95 booster) and his 86 stock gt right now.

My father is an aerospace engineer, thought I would mention that. He took measurements from front to back, firewall to shock tower, and all around, and he said that there is absolutely no difference between the 86 and the 88. He also said that there is no reason why the same mods to the firewall could not be performed to the 86 and wouldn't work.

In other words, he was willing to bet that oblonging the holes in the firewall on the 86 in the right fashion WILL result in that booster sliding into the 86. Now, of course he mentioned anything could come up during install, but He was willing to bet the farm that that booster WILL slide into and 86/older without the bashing of the shock tower. Additionally, I am going to do this on my 86 vert within the next two weeks. He already has a template for the holes from the job on the 88, and by the end I will have a template for the 86 too, if any different. This booster WILL go in without any shock tower mods.

Additionally, we are going to attempt any mods to the firewall, by attempting to remove the studs from the booster, and find a way to use bolts instead that would screw in from the inside of the car. Will keep you all posted. At least this post should give useful info to all those contemplating this swap that was discouraged by the "bashing" parties going on.

[v8only]

btw, in response to the previous post,

even after oblonging the holes, it was not a clean pop in deal, it had to be pushed against the shocktower physically till it snapped in place.

I totally agree about production tolerances, however, in this instance, I am convinced that this can be replicated in any mustang with the placement of the right firewall mods.

[silver85]

btw, in response to the previous post,
I totally agree about production tolerances, however, in this instance, I am convinced that this can be replicated in any mustang with the placement of the right firewall mods.

good to know. :) I have changed everything on my car but the booster. I can get a V6 one real cheap too. I'll do that mod sometime in the near future.

[50 Proof]

I'd like to add that if I am able to get the SN95 brake booster into my 88, but someone on the corral had to smash his strut tower in on his 88, and the geometry is all physically the same, then the guy who smashed in his strut tower obviously did not know how to elongate the firewall holes in a way that will allow the brake booster to slide in place. You have to elongate the holes in such a way where the studs will not interfer with the other holes as your sliding it in.
When your elongating the holes and sliding the booster into place, it requires paying close attention from the inside of the car, to how the studs are interfering with the other holes. Once you see how the studs are interfering, you can elongate the other holes accordingly. Then of course after you've done this, spray the holes with a good rust preventative paint so that your firewall doesn't get all rusted.
If they are elongated correctly, it will fit with out smashing.

[Coupester]

What you guys seem to be missing here, is that your plan is fine and dandy if you are installing V6 or GT brakes. If you have intentions of installing Cobra brakes, you'll likely want to install either a 94-95 Cobra booster, or a 99-2004 V6 booster, both of which are quite a bit larger than the v6/ GT boosters!

Chris

[silver85]

He elongated all four holes too. I don't know specifically whch booster he used. I just know that he had to massage it a millimeter or so to clear it even with elongating the holes. All four of them.

[50 Proof]

What you guys seem to be missing here, is that your plan is fine and dandy if you are installing V6 or GT brakes. If you have intentions of installing Cobra brakes, you'll likely want to install either a 94-95 Cobra booster, or a 99-2004 V6 booster, both of which are quite a bit larger than the v6/ GT boosters!

Chris

Hey, in case if you missed this link from the first page....
http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=325259&highlight=cobra+brake+booster

Your after a bigger booster for the fox, which the V6 booster is a considerable amount bigger then a stock 86 booster. Basically, cobra booster, V6 booster, who cares? And in most cases, it's all under the same part number anyways when you go to a parts store. The cobra booster isn't going to make a huge difference over the V6 booster. If you like to find ways to waste your time, go for it, but the V6 booster is plenty sufficient.

[v8only]

The 94/95 cobra booster is definetly bigger, however, from everything I read, most people seem to agree that the difference between the v6 booster and the cobra booster are negligable at best when installed on a fox,...even with cobra brakes. Ultimitely, people do what they think is best for their combo, however the goal here is to stuff the largest possible booster into that tiny space. The v6 booster will fit. I drove Corey's car. With that v6 booster, and just the oem brakes (he hasn't done his sn95 brake conversion yet) I can gaurantee that the sn95 swap alone would be 15 times better than the standard fox brakes, and that the hassle for cobra brakes is not worth it at all, unless you are pushing 450 rear wheel horse power, or have an all out race mustang, even then, I will go out on a limb to say that the sn95 brakes will be sufficient. Keep in mind, those brakes were desigined in mind for a car that is 300-800 pounds heavier too.