Serious problem!!!

[Stanger86]

Ok so my brake line exploded and my braked went totally out the other day. Had my car towed home. Repaired it and now it stops great. BUT.....I take it out for a drive and now somehow I have a serious sputtering problem. It idles really ruff and smokes really bad. The smoke just smells like gas. At first I thought blown head gasket when I felt it and saw the smoke but the smoke would smell like antifreeze. I know it needs a tune-up pretty bad. Could my timing chain have slipped when I did a burnout earlier with excessive weight in the rear? Sounds possible to me..maybe. I need some advice please! I'm always breakin some ****!!

- Chad

[85Coupe50]

Check the oil. Is there any milky look to it? Blown head gasket if there is.

You might just need a tune up.

[madmike8]

hmm... Brake Fluid is corrosive.. any chance that any of it got on wires or sensors?

[Stanger86]

Oil level is low but looks good not milky. Yes brake fluid could have got on something possibly. But would it corrode it over night? COuld just needing a tune-up make it this bad? Think the timing is an issue?

[gtluke]

where did the brake line break?
look into the tune up first. i've only seen 1 timing chain jump in my life, and i really really don't think an HO 5.0 could do it. double chain and all. i HAMMERED on my 86 motor with 180k on it... the chain isnt' that loose as it sits on the motor at my shop :)

[Stanger86]

It broke on the front drivers side in the ruber hose. I got new plugs,cap,rotor,and wires today. I have put everything except the plugs in so far and it still runs the same. I was also a quart low on oil but I filled it up. Antifreeze was also pretty low but I know I have a leak at the thermostat that I have to fix still. I'll put the plugs in tomorrow and see what happens from there.


- Chad

[abell82]

Vacuum leak?

[Evil86lx]

Fuel Pressure Regulator...

sounds like a bad diaphram in the fpr..

or the egr is stuck..

shouldnt have anything to do with a brake line leaking...

kyle

[Stanger86]

sounds like you guys are warmer now because I noticed that the excessive smoke really smells like gas like it's being flooded somehow. How do I check the FPR? Pressure test it? How about the EGR? How do I test that? Thanks guys

[Evil86lx]

Pull the vacume line from the fpr and see if it has fuel in it or a bad fuel smell...

Hit the egr valve a few times with a small hammer, dont break anything..

or remove the egr and clean all the carbon out....

then apply vacume to it and see if it is opening and closing..

kyle

[Stanger86]

I'll do both in the morning and post the results.

[Stanger86]

Just pulled the vacuum from the FPR and it does smell like gas and the tip of the vacuum port looks as if it was wet. Haven't checked the EGR yet but it looks like I'm gonna have to remove it anywayz to get access to the FPR. That thing is crammed in there. It looks like it's gonna be a bitch to do. I'll post the results after I get the damn thing changed. Only cost 17.99 for a new FPR! Yippeee!!

- Chad

[Stanger86]

So it took me from the time of my last post till now to get the god damn thing off. It was not meant to be done by people with big hands. Why the hell would you put the screws in from the bottom? I never thought I would have to take a lunch break in the middle of this. Only god knows how I'm gonna get the new one back on. Those screws suck so bad to get to.

[Stanger86]

God damn $%#&$^%%^%^#$^#**&()*%^$%#$&^%$%#&$^%%^%^#$^#**&()*%^$%#$&^%$%#&$%%^%#$^#**&()*%^$%#$&^%$%#&$^%%^%^#$^#**&*%^$%#$&^%$%#&$%%^%^#$^#**&()*%^$%#$&^%$%#&$%%%#$^#**&*%^$%#$&%$%#&$^%%^%#$^#**&()*%^$%#$^%$%#&$^%%^%^#$^#**&*%^$%#$&^%$%#&$^%%^%^#$^#**&*%^$%#$&^%$%#&$%%^%^#$^#**&()*%^$%#$&^%$%#&$^%%^%^#$^#**&()*%^$%#$&^%$%#&$^%%^%^#$^#**&()*%^$%#$&^% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So I thought it was fixed. Seemed to run a little better but still smoked so I thought hey maybe it just needs some new plugs to help burn all that excess fuel out of there. So on the way to the parts store I stop at a red light and when I take off....... HUGE smoke storm behind the car!!!!!! I'm guessing that was the other part of my head gasket taking a ****!! SOn of a bitch!!! Good thing I have till friday before I have to work again! Well I guess I had better start tearing it down.

[Stanger86]

Ok so I went out to start my car one more time to verify my suspicion but I still can't convince myself. I have gone through lots of head gaskets before and it always smells like antifreeze and you can smell it from far away even. It still smells like gas to me and when I took off the intake hose there is a puddle of gas sitting in the throttle body. Is there anything else besides the FPR that could be dumping excessive amounts of fuel in the engine????

[shok]

I have a couple of suggestions, first I would get an automotive stethoscope and use it to listen to each injector and see if one is stuck. Of course a leaky injector could also make a normal sound but still might help pinpoint. After that I would do a compression check. Hope this helps.

[Stanger86]

Son of a bitch it's the head gasket! Well I guess I had better go get started on it. This sucks!

[roller4v]

This is a long shot but it might be worth checking. Since all this started when you busted a brake hose you might check for damage to the power brake booster. A bad power brake booster can cause a very large vacuum leak and I'm not sure what the computer is going to do when it senses lower vacuum levels in the manifold then should be there. Perhaps dump more fuel since it thinks the engine is under load?

Like I said its a long shot but before you go pulling the head off you might want to check.

Steve

[Stanger86]

Well first the brakes work better than before I broke the hose so I don't know what happened but everything there should be working just fine. Also considering when I let it run for 10 minutes last night I smoked out the whole neighborhood and there is a lake of antifreeze behind the car... I think I'll be pulling the head. Thanks for the input though.

[1redcat]

try pulling the computer and getting it checked.

[Stanger86]

The computer isn't gonna make antifreeze come pouring out of the exhaust is it?

[Stanger86]

So I started taking the motor apart and when I pulled off the upper intake manifold it was full of antifreeze and I mean a good amount. How does the antifreeze get sucked into the intake manifold?

[shok]

First I want to say I've never owned a ford with that type of injection, so no first hand experience. I would check if somehow the coolant that is routed thru the throttle body is somehow escaping into the intake. Maybe even just bypass the coolant so it no longer goes to the TB and then see if the prob disapears.

[ethangsmith]

some cars are equipped with a heated (winter) or cooled (summer) intake manifold. my 2.3l has a hose that tees into the heater core hose and runs around the back of the engine to the intake to regulate its temperature and also the ported vacuum switch plugs into it and the coolant sensor for the compy plugs into it. but having coolant coming out of various places sure sounds like a blown head!

[Stanger86]

The coolant and the oil both smell like fuel.

[85Coupe50]

So I started taking the motor apart and when I pulled off the upper intake manifold it was full of antifreeze and I mean a good amount. How does the antifreeze get sucked into the intake manifold?

It could just be age but the water passage is right there next to the intake ports on the head. The water can actually creat a corrosion and seep in there until it can hydro the cyliber enough to blow a head gasket. Then you have a really big leak.

Good luck.

[85Coupe50]

The coolant and the oil both smell like fuel.

The fuel pressure regulator is letting pressure push fuel into the intake once the enigne is shut off. Also you can have a leak down through the heads/valves valve seals go after a long time. The best way to do it to make sure everything will be good when you put it back together is to have the heads rebuilt and do a 3 angle valve job.

Just do it right the first time and you should have good luck the rest of the mustangs life.

[Matt K]

So I started taking the motor apart and when I pulled off the upper intake manifold it was full of antifreeze and I mean a good amount. How does the antifreeze get sucked into the intake manifold?

It sounds like the gasket in your EGR plate/spacer (sandwitched between the throttle body & upper intake) let loose or the spacer is cracked. I had one leak in my 90 GT before after swapping out the throttle body & EGR spacer for a larger one & trying to re-use the old gaskets. If you look, there's a small rubber hose on the front & back side of the EGR spacer, coolant goes through those into the spacer to help warm up the intake in winter & cool it in summer. I bet that's where it's coming from! Try pulling the TB & EGR & replacing the gaskets (also see if anything is cracked). Good luck!

[Stanger86]

It sounds like the gasket in your EGR plate/spacer (sandwitched between the throttle body & upper intake) let loose or the spacer is cracked. I had one leak in my 90 GT before after swapping out the throttle body & EGR spacer for a larger one & trying to re-use the old gaskets. If you look, there's a small rubber hose on the front & back side of the EGR spacer, coolant goes through those into the spacer to help warm up the intake in winter & cool it in summer. I bet that's where it's coming from! Try pulling the TB & EGR & replacing the gaskets (also see if anything is cracked). Good luck!

Son of a bitch! I've got it all the way torn down to where all I have to do is loosen the rockers, pull out the pushrods, and unbolt the heads. When I was taking apart the throttle body and egr spacer I sat there and stared at it and inspected it for awhile thinking something like that could be happening. The hole that goes to the egr looked like it had a thick " sludge " coming out of it. Also the hole that has a screen on it was clogged. All of the gaskets that came off there are shredded to pieces as you can expect from age. **** I don't know what to do now. I kinda want to go ahead and just replace the head gaskets while I got it taken apart even if they aren't blow I'm sure it wouldn't hurt. But I know if I do that I still need to get a new set of head bolts anybody know how much they cost? Also I picked up some plugs for the air passages on the back of the heads so I was gonna throw those in too while I had the heads off. I think I'm just gonna go ahead and pull'em off since I'm so far allready and replace them even if they aren't bad. Can I get all the gaskets I need for the throttle body and egr at just any parts store? Thanks guys.

- Chad

[Evil86lx]

change the gaskets.. won't hurt.

And you should be able to get them at O'reily's..

Should of pulled the EGR off to clean it, might of noticed the problem before hand.. oh well it prob needed H/G anyway and its a good time to inspect everything while your in their..

I thought you where going carbed?? You could do it now while you have everything apart instead of taking it apart again in the future..

kyle

[Evil86lx]

oh yeah.. HP motorsport their in omaha should have ARP bolts in stock for ya..

kyle

[Stanger86]

Yes I was going to go carb but I don't have quite enough money right now to put everything together. Every project always ends up costing more than predicted. Any idea how much those head bolts run by the way? I figure it will be good to replace the head gaskets anywayz since I will be getting blown before long :)

- Chad

[Stanger86]

Nevermind the price I had a Summit sitting right in front of me. Smacks himself saying "Dumbass"!

- Chad

[Stanger86]

Look what I found!!
http://www.foureyedpride.com/phpBB2/album_pic.php?pic_id=432

[Evil86lx]

Well that would do it...

kyle

[ethangsmith]

hey. i think its blown! :wink: wow. well, the car should run better after fixing that! dont forget to clean out the egr valve and check its operation.

[Stanger86]

Damn I spent all day trying to find head bolts. Everybody was out!! Even HPMotorsport was out what kinda **** is that? I don't know why but none of the parts stores can even get them in. So now I have to wait untill monday to get some from HP. Then nobody has the gasket between the egr plate and the intake plenum so I had to special order that too. This sucks. Well I guess I got time to do some extra cleaning on my motor and make it all perdy. Any pointers anybody has for puting this back together let me know. Also can somebody set me straight on tightening the rockers down when I get it back together? Thanks guys

- Chad

[Evil86lx]

Well if you took it apart you can put it back together.. :D :D

Take your time , clean everything amd dont take any short cuts..

I cant remember the torque, but you need to turn the motor over and set the rockers in order..

If you have a manual it gives real good directions. pretty simple but off the top of my head i cant remember which ones you tighten at certain times..

Pretty sure its when the valve is all the way up..

Man it's been awhile since i had one torn down..

But here is a little trick i use... I always use my manual and when ever i look something up i highlight it and wright down any notes on the page for future refference..

I dont have access to my books right now other wise i would give it to you..

kyle

[Stanger86]

My damn chilton's dosen't show how to do it.

[Evil86lx]

let me see if i can find it tomorrow...

kyle

[Stanger86]

allright thanks man. i have found several procedures for tightening rocker arms but every method I find is for adjustable rocker arms.

[Stanger86]

Any luck on finding the rocker adjustments anybody?

- Chad

[Zap's 85 GT]

If you would have gotten a head change gasket kit it would have come with all the gaskets you would ever need, including the EGR one. Hell I must have four or five of them in the garage that I'm probably never going to use.

Thr rocker arm fulcrum nuts are torqued 18-25 ft lbs. As long as the lobe is on the base circle you can tighten em down. Easy as that. They may rattle a bit until they fully pump up with oil but usually not for more then 20 or 30 mins.

Why doyou need new head bolts? They arent the torque-to-yeild style ones. You can reuse the stock ones. Thats why noone seems to have em in stock. You dont need them unless they are damaged.

[Stanger86]

Thr rocker arm fulcrum nuts are torqued 18-25 ft lbs. As long as the lobe is on the base circle you can tighten em down. Easy as that. They may rattle a bit until they fully pump up with oil but usually not for more then 20 or 30 mins.

Why doyou need new head bolts? They arent the torque-to-yeild style ones. You can reuse the stock ones. Thats why noone seems to have em in stock. You dont need them unless they are damaged.


So let me get this straight. First your telling me all I have to do is make sure the rocker is properly seated and then just tourque them down? Or what exactly do you mean by "As long as the lobe is on the base circle you can tighten em down"? Also you are telling me I don't even need new head bolts? Why didn't somebody tell me this before? Everything I have ever read on head bolts says never to re-use them. Don't get me wrong I'm not bitching because I went back to HP Motorsport today and they said they had to use the bolts they ordered in on some engines they were building so I would have to wait till wednesday now. Can anybody else verify this? I just like to have more than one person tell me this. Thanks soooo much if this is true that saves me like another 60 bucks..

-Chad

[Zap's 85 GT]

Installing the rockers is as easy as I said. they are not adjustable so there is no real trick to installing them. Just being on the base circle of the cam makes it easiest. This means when there is no lift by the cam you can tighten that rocker arm. The ones you cant get, turn the engine over until the pushrod goes back into the engine as far as it can, then tighten the next couple of rockers.

There should be no reason whatsoever as to why you couldnt reuse your headbolts as long as they are in good condition. The newer engines to include the 4.6 use Torque-to-yield style headbolts. This causes the bolts to stretch to give the most even clamping load possible used primarily with the new styles of thin casting aluminum heads. The old school 302's head bolts can be reused numerous times until torquing and retorquing sort of wears out the threads or corrotion takes its toll.

I have rebuilt nearly 30 small block fords and I have always reused the original head bolts. Unless ARP bolts were used for hi-po purposes or for better alluminum head compatability.

[negusm]

Until those new fangled "torque to yield" bolts came out I never heard anybody ask about reusing headbolts. You always reused them (well unless you were going to build a racing motor).

Now everybody's confused about it.

-Mike

[Evil86lx]

I have always used new head bolts.. If i had the heads off it really isnt that big of a deal to go buy new ones.. but yes you can reuse the old ones.. i just dont like to.. but thats me.. their not that expensive.. and it cant hurt anything..

kyle

[Stanger86]

They can hurt my wallet for 60 bucks a set. Thanks for all the info guys. I'm gonna go start putting this thing back together now. I really appreciate all the help.

- Chad

[plstktnkr2]

ok I'm not tryin' to be smart or funny, but if you all thought this was a bad gasket ,why wasn't it suggested to do a compression check? and if 2 cylinders(side by side) were low it would show a bad gasket?
just asking

[RACECAP97]

I was personally wondering if there was any coolant in the engine oil. Maybe I missed that part.

[Stanger86]

Ok, so I got the engine back together and it will not start now. Are there any sensors that could have gone out by running the antifreeze through my engine? I know the timing is right and I know it's getting fuel because I can smell it. It turns over fine and dosen't make any crazy noises or anything. Could the vane meter cause it not to start because I noticed when I changed the gasket to it that it was pretty wet inside so I dried it out. This really sucks I hate damn electronics I knew I should have just changed it to carb. Somebody please help me.

- Chad

[shok]

ok I'm not tryin' to be smart or funny, but if you all thought this was a bad gasket ,why wasn't it suggested to do a compression check? and if 2 cylinders(side by side) were low it would show a bad gasket?
just asking

I'm pretty sure i suggested checking compression but i'm at work and don't have time to search for my post. it should have shown something was up if one was done.

[madmike8]

Well... if it's turning over and it's got fuel pressure... Have you checked for spark yet?

[Stanger86]

Got spark in every cylinder....

[Stanger86]

help please

[Zap's 85 GT]

Its back to basics:
-timing
-compression
-fuel
-spark

[Stanger86]

I have checked all of those. I mean timing is as good as I can tell without it starting. I can smell the fuel and I pushed the valve and fuel shot out. I tested each wire at the plug end and got spark. I suppose the only thing left I could do would check compression I hope I can find my compression tester. What should it read? What would cause the compression to be low after I just replaced the head gasket?

- Chad

[jazzcat2001]

bad coil? are you sure that the motor was at tdc when you dropped the distributor in?

[Stanger86]

If it was a bad coil it wouldn't have spark would it? It did shock me a few times while checking for spark and it didn't seem any less than normal. Just for a good laugh for everybody when I was testing it my ass was a little close to the propane tank and the spark went through my ass to the tank , that was an iteresting feeling let me tell you. To find TDC I did the ol finger blowing out of the hole trick and then put the distributor in so the rotor was on 1.

- Chad

[madmike8]

Yeah... Zap said it...

Its back to basics:
-timing
-compression
-fuel
-spark

Couple of questions... do you hear the fuel pump run for 2 seconds and stop when you turn your key to "Run" position? How did your Spark Plugs look?

Since you say the timing, fuel, and spark is there... a compression check wouldnt hurt...

[Stanger86]

Yes fuel pump runs. Spark plugs are brand new bosch platinum. Will do compression check in the morning.

[Stanger86]

What should the compression be? If the comp. checks out fine what else could be causing this?

[Zap's 85 GT]

Compression numbers arent that important as long as they are within 5-10% for all 8 cyl's. You should get at least 120psi for a decent running engine. Any lower and things start becoming aparent like worn valves and rings. I dont think thats your problem though.

Looks like you are going to need to figure this out on your own. You've messed with too many things at once to steer you in any specific direction with certainty.

You're getting fuel, spark and I'm betting decent compression. All thats left is timing. Tont take guesses for granted. Remove the spout connector and set base timing with someone cranking over the engine. And make sure the firing order is correct one more time.

[Stanger86]

Remove the spout connector and set base timing with someone cranking over the engine. And make sure the firing order is correct one more time.

Uhhhhhh spout connector???? What the hell is that? Please explain how to set base timing I never learned how to do that or maybe I did and it was explained differently. Thanks

- Chad

[Zap's 85 GT]

OK, on the wires going to the TFI module near the distributor there will be a little plastic conector looking thing just hanging there. All it is is a jumper between two wires. When you pull out the plactic jumper connector all it does is removes all the timing advance put in by the computer. Essentially the same thing that disconnecting the vacuum line to a traditional vacuum advance canister on the distributor before you set the timing. That little jumper/plug is called the spout connector. You must remove it to set your base timing or the computer will have the timing marks moving all over the place while you're trying to set it, and the timing will be very far advanced over what it should be. After you set the base timing to 10deg and lock down the distributor, you plug back in the spout connector and you're done.

[Stanger86]

Ok so I got the timing fixed and it fired right up. didn't have a halper so I just kept pull the distributor and moving it back to the next spot it would drop in and then try it. Eventually it fired right up but......... IT STILL SMOKES LIKE CRAZY!!! Do you think maybe I just have to burn all that old antifreeze out or what? It blows out white smoke extremely bad. I just noticed a big puddle of oil underneath and it looks like it's pouring out from the head gasket. WTF??

[Stanger86]

So I just did a compression check and the results are

1 = 120 psi
2 = 90 psi
3 = 85 psi
4 = 115 psi
5 = 70 psi
6 = 119 psi
7 = 120 psi
8 = 80 psi

the blow out was between 5 and 6. I' m gonna take it apart and retorque them now.

[Zap's 85 GT]

Make sure the throttle body is fully open when youre doing the compression check. If not you're numbers will be low and inconsistant.

[Stanger86]

I found that out. I took the whole damn thing apart and retorqued everything because of those damn numbers. Well anywayz everything is back together and running pretty good. I finally found my scanner and plugged it in. I got a code 23, 33, and 42. 42 being that the o2 sensor is stuck on rich so that's why it has alot of white smoke. These scanners can be pretty damn helpful. Also 33 indicates that the egr is not opening. Probally gotta get a new one of those too. 23 indicates TPS signal voltage is out of self test range. Don't quite know about that one. Other than that it is running really smooth and actually drives half-way descent except for the o2 sensor issue.

- Chad

[white1983GT]

sounds like you're almost there,...glad to see you are still at it, a weaker person would have given up by now.

[Hissing Cobra]

Yeah, hang in there and keep going. Let us know how you're making out. 8) Good luck!

[Zap's 85 GT]

I'm surprise you're between the computer and the car so much with all these updates.

[RACECAP97]

I just noticed a big puddle of oil underneath and it looks like it's pouring out from the head gasket. WTF??


What was up with that?

[Stanger86]

I just noticed a big puddle of oil underneath and it looks like it's pouring out from the head gasket. WTF??


What was up with that?

Improperly installed valve cover gasket :D

[Stanger86]

I'm surprise you're between the computer and the car so much with all these updates.

It's always nice to be able to talk with other people and get evrybodys opinion on what to do. That what these forums are for right. I love this place. Thanks to evrybody that gave thier 2 sense on everything.

- Chad