351 windsor / 351 cleveland questions...

[necromancer]

ok, for 20 years now, ive always heard that the 351 windsor was a small block that shared some parts compatability with the 302, such as heads, distributor, etc. and that the 351 cleveland was a big block, like the 390, 400, etc. i have always been told that the two motors are distinctly different, and share no parts between them.

enter this months issue of mustang monthly. according to the "middle block builders guide" p66, the heads interchange. in a photo on p68 it shows intakes for both engines, and they are very different.

now im confused. originally, i wanted a 302, stroked to 347, with windsor heads, and other crap. now, after reading the article (at least 4 times) i think i want a 351 windsor, stroked to 377, with cleveland heads? ok, so im still confused. SOMEBODY TELL ME WHICH IS WHICH AND WHAT WORKS WITH WHAT!!!! AAAARRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!! :x :x

whew. i feel better. later, gents. :)

[Zephyr 351C]

The idea of putting cleveland heads on on a windsor (making a "clevor") is an old one, that requires a specail intake. Racers used to do this because of the lacking aftermarket for the small block ford. Now, with all the aftermarket support, its not worth the trouble.

Also, the 351C is not a big-block, I dont know why ppl started saying that, maybe becase of the canted valves or the fact the C would scream.

My advice, stick with the windsor heads.

However in the C heads still intrige you, theres a thread at the corral in the 351C/Big block forum at the corral called "how to put cleveland heads on a windor" or something along those lines

[todds84rag]

Yup it can be done but like Zephyr 351C you need to modify them,(from Ford SVO tips)351C heads have cooling outlet in the combustion face, windsors have a outlet in the intake manifold face of the head... and it gives tips on how to modify.
The way I understand it 289/302/351W s.b. , then 351C/351M/400 fall into there own "mid" catagory then the big F.E. blocks 390,428,429,460.
Todd

[necromancer]

ok, if i understand correctly, then the windsor IS a small block. i should have little difficulty in putting one in a mustang. also, i have noted that the aftermarket has quite a few options for the 351W, too. especially in intakes (im leaning toward the weiand stealth).

i have wanted to avoid anything bigger than a small block, as i dont see the car handling too well with little weight in the butt and a million pounds of motor over the front wheels.

and the cleveland is a "mid size block"? like a dakota is a mid size truck?
will a fox hold and handle well with one of these (351C, 400)?

and then you have the "true big blocks" like the 390, 420 something, etc? ok, that is definately not what i want in the car. i thank you for the info, and as always, later gents.

[Mike Croke]

Small block Windsor (made in Windsor, Canada) engines are 260, 289, 302, 302 HO, 351W. Parts are "interchangeable" generally. There are some differences like the 351W has a taller deck height than the other blocks (distance from crank centerline to top of deck), the imbalance changed around 1980 from 28oz to 50oz so the flexplate/flywheel and harmonic balancer must match the year of the crankshaft.

The Cleveland (made in Cleveland, Ohio) engines were the 351C 2V, 351 4V, Boss 302, Boss 351. These have nothing in common with the Windsor engines except displacement. The Cleveland was a stone under 3000rpm but would rev to silly levels because of the enormous ports in the heads, the canted valve arrangement, and the small bearings on the crankshaft. But the blocks had relatively thin walls and couldn't be bored much. Also, because the crank bearings were small, they tended to have oiling issues.

As stated already, the old trick was to modify the Cleveland head to fit the Windsor block because the factory Windsor heads performed poorly compared to the factory Cleveland heads. Over the past decade, that has changed as you can now buy aftermarket heads for Windsors that will beat the Cleveland heads. So the hassle isn't worth while anymore. But you'll still find the old Clevor legend won't die.

The 351M and 400M (Midland not "modified" like the rubes call it) are the bastards of the '70s. They have Cleveland heads on really stout shortblocks and only came in trucks and station wagons. The bottom end was similar to big blocks so high rpm was bad but the Cleveland heads didn't work down low. Thus, this engine has gone the way of the dinosaurs. These are heavy engines that work well in tractors and tow trucks.

The FE series consists of 352, 390, 410, 427, 427 SOHC, 428, 428CJ. These are big blocks. The 427 is the legendary motor in the GT40s and Shelby Cobras and made way over 500hp in factory trim. The 427 SOHC had a single timing chain that was 7 feet long and drove the overhead camshafts in each head. "Sock" or "Cammer" motors made silly power and reved to the moon. Reports of 1000+hp were not uncommon. The FE engines are the NASCAR and NHRA motors of the 60's. They are big engines that make big power. There are lots of aftermarket parts for these and they are expensive.

The 385 series of big block is the 429, 429CJ, Boss 429, 460 introduced in 1969. These have nothing in common with the FE big blocks. They can be taken out to 514 using factory pieces and there is a strong aftermarket for them. All NHRA and IHRA Pro Stock use these engines.

[86 50CPRI]

the Croke has spoken!

[m j]

sad that we are saddled with Chev monikers SB or BB.


351c is a small block ford
shares bore spacing(the main factor)
head bolt pattern
tranny bolt pattern
motor mounts

if you look at the specs it was built to beat SBC
the deck hieght is only .2 taller then a SBC 9.02 vs 9.2
the bore and stroke are nearly identical 4x3.48 vs 4x3.5
the rods are nearly the same length 5.7 vs 5.78

it had enough low end power to push huge cars around.
1970 torinos
1972 cougars (I have a 4 bolt main from one of these and they are open chamber so about a whole 8:1 compression)
have you seen any of those massive boats?

simply the best SB every made by any manufacturer
which is why they are factored or outright banned from most racing

[FoxChassis]

Small block Windsor (made in Windsor, Canada) engines are 260, 289, 302, 302 HO, 351W. Parts are "interchangeable" generally. There are some differences like the 351W has a taller deck height than the other blocks (distance from crank centerline to top of deck), the imbalance changed around 1980 from 28oz to 50oz so the flexplate/flywheel and harmonic balancer must match the year of the crankshaft.
Don't forget the 221 (before and during 289 production) and 255 (during 302 production), both of which are included in the "Windsor" engine family. But only the 351W was cast in Windsor, Ontario. The 50 oz imbalance factor was for the 255 and 302 only and that changeover happened after '80.

The Cleveland (made in Cleveland, Ohio) engines were the 351C 2V, 351 4V, Boss 302, Boss 351. These have nothing in common with the Windsor engines except displacement.
The BOSS 302 is a "Windsor" family block. But it has 351C cylinder heads.

The 351M and 400M (Midland not "modified" like the rubes call it) are the bastards of the '70s.
The 400 doesn't have a letter designation. The reason the 351C, 351M, and 351W have a letter designation (the letter distinguishes where it was cast [C = Cleveland, Ohio, M = Midland, Michigan, W = Windsor, Ontario] and therefore quickly points out the differences of each at quick glance) is to distinguish each from the others. If there was only one 351 ever made, it wouldn't have a letter designation, just like the 400.

[necromancer]

so if i go with a 351 windsor block, i need to find a 50 oz harmonic balancer to go with it? does the 377 stroker kit come with a balancer, or does it use the stock 50 oz?

or should i buy a complete 351 windsor motor, which would give me the correct balancer and flywheel?

thanks again for all the info, later, gents.

[FoxChassis]

The 221, 260, 289, '68-'80 302, and 351W all had a 28.2 oz imbalance factor.

The 255 and '81 and up 302 had a 50 oz imbalance factor.

You can specify or purchase any harmonic dampener and flywheel/flexplate you desire as long as it matches the crankshaft imblance. In other words, if you purchase a "stroker kit", you ask the manufacturer or retailer what imbalance is required.

[m j]

that has changed as you can now buy aftermarket heads for Windsors that will beat the Cleveland heads

ever notice that the best small Ford cylinder heads are still C based.
even when NASCRAP banned the canted valve the Yates head still used a C style with no side cant rather then a W

[SCTbird92]

were not 50oz balance. I used the C5 and stock 4.2L flywheel,motor mounts & Rad hoses to put the 351C in my car.

[Anonymous]

Also, because the crank bearings were small, they tended to have oiling issues.




Although I don't own a fox bodied mustang, I felt compelled to register so I could reply to clarify some mis-information.

The oiling issues have NOTHING to do with the main bearing size. Actually, the smaller main bearing diameter of 2.79 is much better than the 3" diameter Windsor based motors use, that's why all the NASCAR blocks are designed to be used with 2.79 diameter bearings. Smaller bearing diameters equal slower bearing speed, less friction, and more power.
Clevelands oiling system problems are entirely related to the way oil is routed thru the block. Basically oil is ran to the top of the block before it is directed to the mains. That's why they have oiling problems at hi-rpm. The oiling problems are easily corrected, but I wont get into that here.

There are a lot of aftermarket Windsor heads on the market that flow well. But a modified full race cleveland head will still make more power than any of them. Why do you think NMRA banned the use of Cleveland heads? A full race C head will flow over 370 cfm on the intake side. Just pocket ported, they will flow as well as most of the aftermarket Windsor heads.

That's enough from me. :)
Have a nice day.

[87BOSS351C]

[quote=Mike Croke]
The 400 doesn't have a letter designation. The reason the 351C, 351M, and 351W have a letter designation (the letter distinguishes where it was cast [C = Cleveland, Ohio, M = Midland, Michigan, W = Windsor, Ontario] and therefore quickly points out the differences of each at quick glance) is to distinguish each from the others. If there was only one 351 ever made, it wouldn't have a letter designation, just like the 400.

Ok, I've lived in Midland, Michigan for 25 years and there were never any Engine casting foundries here. In fact until about a year ago I had never heard of a 351M being called a "Midland". I've always called them "Modified" but the M is not really supposed to stand for anything. The 351M and 400 were cast at both the Cleveland Foundry and the Michigan Casting Center (near Detroit, I belive). Also, the 302 in my '72 Torino was cast at the Cleveland Foundry.

[Anonymous]

351C is the better of the two.

[Whole Lotta Tom]

>>>
The 351M and 400M (Midland not "modified" like the rubes call it) are the bastards of the '70s. They have Cleveland heads on really stout shortblocks and only came in trucks and station wagons. The bottom end was similar to big blocks so high rpm was bad but the Cleveland heads didn't work down low. Thus, this engine has gone the way of the dinosaurs. These are heavy engines that work well in tractors and tow trucks.
>>>

Ah, rubes. Well, if you consider the Ford Motor Company "rubes", then you may be in a minority opinion. First, the M in 351M had no published meaning when first used on the release of the engine combination in 1975. The purpose was only to differentiate the particular combo from the 351C and 351W. Years later, in the Motorsport catalog, the M was defined as standing for Modified. The explaination is still there.

The 400 has no "M". It never did. No factory lit has the 400 followed by an M. It is an invention of those hapless, uh, rubes at the magazines. You know, the same ones who use rediculous terms like "middle block". The 400 is the 400. Simple as that. It is very unlikely that you will ever confuse the Ford 400 with any of the other Ford 400s, since there were none.

As for usage, the 400 was available in the Ford Torino Sport fastbacks and the Montego GT fastbacks. Those, BTW, were not station wagons. True, there were no "Boss 400s". It's up to the proud, the few, the brave to hotrod them, and thousands do. If you check the Ford Truck forum, you will find many folks who chose the 400 over the 460 for high-performance pulling competition engines. One very special truck, Shazam, has an 800 HP 434 cube 400. Read about it here:

http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID12/503.html

Many folks in street cars also use the 400. There are many others. Some, who have been lucky enough to locate the rare 400 block with the small-block bell housing bolt pattern, have shoved them into Panteras. If yer gonna go, go big!

How much does a 400 weigh? Not as much as you would think. Now, the weight debate has been raging for some time, but I have the ultimate weapon. Actual Ford Motor Comapny weight data. Not only for the 400, but for many engines. Here it is:

http://home.earthlink.net/~tcrocker/FordEngineWeightsV1.html

Do make use of the tabs at the bottom to flip the pages.

Oh, Cleveland heads work fine down low, if you know what you are doing.

Already mentioned is the fact that Cleveland blocks were cast at the Cleveland Foundry and the Michigan Casting Center, and that there are no casting facilities in Midland Michigan.

"Big block" and "small block" are Chevvy terms. Ford engines fall into what Ford calls "engine families". Please, use the engine family names, not the ragazine shivvy garbage.

Here is another great forum for Cleveland stuff:

http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/119419

You can find out about Clevors there, although the new Windsor heads are pretty darn good. There are some new Cleveland alloy street heads out though.

Hey, cool forum here. Enjoy the links!

[Play400]

We started to use the cleveland heads on the windsor block because the windsor oils better. If you chech some of the older the SVO catalog you'll notice that the new small blocks are based on the windsor bottom end and the cleveland style heads. Problem withcleveland 4v heads was that the ports were so big it didn't have any bottom end ie. 302 Boss and of course the cleveland 2v heads had too big a combustion chanber and could not tolerate compression over 8.5 :1 without pinging. Sooo we started using the assie heads which had the 4v style combustion chamber and the 2v ports and there was a custom BOSS intake we used to run on the 351 w.. Made power the whole way and we were smoking the chevies on the dirt track. Ford then started the aluminum head program and the assie head was no longer the trick. Cleveland bottom ends suck.

[Anonymous]

Does any one know where I can find a demensioned cad drawing for the adapter plate necessary to bolt 2V cleveland heads to a windsor series block? I know this isn't the trick anymore, but my friend has access to his schools machine shop and I have access to some cleveland heads, and we are low on cash and bored (a bad combination). I am sitting in a dorm room so I can't take the measurements to draw up the adapter plate myself.

[FoxChassis]

There are directions and illustrations in every FMS SVO and FRPP catalog. To mate the heads to the block, there is no plate. You drill the intake side of each head to get to the coolant passages and you plug the deck (block) side of the head to block the coolant passages. The bore spacing and bolt bosses are all the same. That's why all 'Windsor' family and 335 series family heads interchange.

The intake is the tricky part because the Windsor and Cleveland deck heights are different, as are the intake ports, and the above mentioned water passeges don't match. Therefore, you cannot use a Cleveland- or Windsor-specific intake. You need was a lot of people call a "Clevor" (Cleveland/Windsor) intake.

Do a Web search using various keywords such as "Clevor intake", "B&A BOSS intake", etc.

Here are some 'hits' I got back:

http://www.panteraplace.com/page35.htm
http://www.detomaso.nu/~thomast/efi
http://www.pricemotorsport.com/Intake_Manifolds/Clevor2v/clevor2v.html
http://www.pricemotorsport.com/Intake_Manifolds/Clevor4v/clevor4v.html
http://www.69mustang.com/_techforum/0000053d.htm
http://bossc351.stangnet.com/Links.html
http://www.themustangshop.com/clevor.cfm

[Anonymous]

This is actually what I was thinking of.
http://www.pricemotorsport.com/Intake_Adapters/AP-16/ap-16.html

[FoxChassis]

And you still have to modify the heads, as I have outlined above.

Plus, do the Cleveland 2V intake ports match the ports on the Windsor intake? If not, you're going to have hellacious flow irregularities.

[Anonymous]

I haven't done too much research on it yet. I don't know about the flow irregularities.

[Anonymous]

Cleveland bottom ends suck.

Really??
I disagree with that 100%. It doesn't take much to fix the oiling system, and the stock crank and rods are just as strong as any other factory peices out there. And in most cases, they are stronger. The only real problem with clevelands is the thin cylinder walls.

My race cleveland makes around 585-600 hp, gets spun 7500 rpm every pass, and uses stock rods and a stock crank. Factory windsor rods wont live at that HP level, at least not from what I have seen other guys do.

As for the open chamber heads not working with compression, I ran a 10-1 motor on pump gas a long time and never had any detonation problems. And that was using open chambered 4v heads. If the combination is right, and the tune-up is good, you don't need to have the over-hyped aussie heads.

[Mike Croke]

Whole Lotta Tom

I stand corrected. Thank you.